Fundies Built the British Empire [split from Sticking a Fork in Evolution]

[Dave Hawkins]

NOTE: The title that Dean Anderson AKA Monkey Pants gave this thread ... "Britain was founded as a theocracy" ... is very dishonest and not what I think. A better title would be ...

"Fundies" Built the British Empire

Calilasseia ...

If you and all the other fundiforms are so convinced that your theocratic wet dream is such a good idea, why don't you put your money where your collective mouths are, go find a nice uninhabited island somewhere, and construct your masturbation fantasy on that? Or is that too much like hard work?

We did something very close to your suggestion. Ever heard of the British Isles? It wasn't uninhabited, but we "fundiforms" took it over and built it into one of the best nations on the planet. Ever wonder why so many nations on earth teach their schoolchildren English? And from this island, we "fundiforms" also built modern science. Read about that here.

[LuisGarcia]

Originally Posted by Dave Hawkins

We did something very close to your suggestion. Ever heard of the British Isles? It wasn't uninhabited, but we "fundiforms" took it over and built it into one of the best nations on the planet. Ever wonder why so many nations on earth teach their schoolchildren English? And from this island, we "fundiforms" also built modern science. Read about that here.

That is the single most hilarious thing I've read at RnR.

[Obd]

Originally Posted by Dave Hawkins

We did something very close to your suggestion. Ever heard of the British Isles? It wasn't uninhabited, but we "fundiforms" took it over and built it into one of the best nations on the planet. Ever wonder why so many nations on earth teach their schoolchildren English?

It's one of the success stories of British imperialism.

[LuisGarcia]

I'm still laughing. Dave thinks Britain is an example of a theocratic nation?

You've never been here, have you Dave?

[LuisGarcia]

(Here's a hint, Dave. Where did Charles Darwin come from?)

[teucer]

Originally Posted by Dave Hawkins

Ever heard of the British Isles? It wasn't uninhabited, but we "fundiforms" took it over and built it into one of the best nations on the planet.

Do you mean the Romans? Edward Gibbon (you probably haven't heard of him) made the case that the fall of the Roman Empire more-than-coincidentally coincided with the rise of Christianity, which he suggested led to weakness and factionalism.

I am sure you don't mean the Saxons, as they were pagan until much later. The Normans were Christians, true enough, but it would have been hard to separate the shining light of Christianity from either Christian or non-Christian Saxon society.

From your worthless blog:

First, what do I mean by a “fundy”? I mean a “fundamentalist” … that is, someone who believes in the fundamentals of (in this case) the Christian Faith … more specifically, the fundamentals of the Christian Faith articulated by the Protestant Reformation, for example, Calvinists, and even more specifically for this post … Puritans.

Now bearing in mind that the reformation did not begin until 1536, late in the Renaissance, and that England had been extant as a kingdom since before the millennium, would you care to retract this ignorant statement?

Clueless Dave Hawkins, once again.

[ninewands]

Originally Posted by Dave Hawkins

We did something very close to your suggestion. Ever heard of the British Isles? It wasn't uninhabited, but we "fundiforms" took it over and built it into one of the best nations on the planet.

????????

Last time I checked the established church in England was the Anglican Church (hardly "fundiform, even then). You see, Davey-doodles, the British Empire didn't really get rolling until AFTER the Stewart Restoration (damned Catholics) in which MANY of the leading "dissenters" including Cromwell, himself, were executed ...

Ever wonder why so many nations on earth teach their schoolchildren English?

Errrrmmmm ... could it be because because so many of them were conquered in order to enrich the stockholders of the Royal East India Company? Who, being good Royalists, could hardly be numbered among the "Dissenters."

And from this island, we "fundiforms" also built modern science. Read about that here.

Errrrrmmmm ... yeah, well, you might want to do some REAL "history of science" and "history of religion" research, Davey-doodles ... you might learn things the fundy websites don't want you to know ... like ,,,

The Rev. Joseph Priestley ... was run out of England and his home and laboratory burned ... for preaching Unitarianism.

Isaac Newton ... good, Puritan-sympathizer that he was, was also an alchemist (at a time when the Church condemned alchemy).

If you think Robert Boyle practiced modern science, think again ... like MOST 17th century "Natural Philosophers," his "experiments" consisted of "try this and see what happens." (e.g., dosing himself with up to 15 grams of mercury a day for various "ills," dissecting living animals to see how they worked on the inside.

... and so on and so on ...

Many more "Natural Philosophers" were killed by their blind "experiments" than you fundiforms who try to claim them want to acknowledge.

Yep, Davey-doodles, you fundiforms are DAMNED progressive thinkers!

[Pappy Jack]

Originally Posted by Dave Hawkins

We did something very close to your suggestion. Ever heard of the British Isles? It wasn't uninhabited, but we "fundiforms" took it over and built it into one of the best nations on the planet. Ever wonder why so many nations on earth teach their schoolchildren English? And from this island, we "fundiforms" also built modern science. Read about that here.

Holy Toledo, Dave. How much polemical tosh can you put into one paragraph? I'm sure not only the Brits here would be more than willing to debate these absurd assertions with you on another thread, if you're not too busy searching out supporting evidence for your Suigetsu arguments. There are so many questions begged, bizarre assumptions and downright errors in this one paragraph that it must stand as some sort of record.

[Monkey Pants]

Originally Posted by Dave Hawkins

We did something very close to your suggestion. Ever heard of the British Isles? It wasn't uninhabited, but we "fundiforms" took it over and built it into one of the best nations on the planet. Ever wonder why so many nations on earth teach their schoolchildren English? And from this island, we "fundiforms" also built modern science. Read about that here.

Un-be-fucking-lievable.

I reckon this deserves its own thread...

[Lucretius II]

Originally Posted by LuisGarcia

I'm still laughing. Dave thinks Britain is an example of a theocratic nation?

You've never been here, have you Dave?

WE DON'T WANT HIM HERE EITHER !!!
Thank you very much

[ck1]

Originally Posted by Dave Hawkins

We did something very close to your suggestion. Ever heard of the British Isles? It wasn't uninhabited, but we "fundiforms" took it over and built it into one of the best nations on the planet. Ever wonder why so many nations on earth teach their schoolchildren English? And from this island, we "fundiforms" also built modern science. Read about that here.

Hi Dave!

While you are here, why not comment on Guzman's "scientific" observations? Do you agree with anything he has said?

Oh, and I see that your link is to your blog discussion of the Royal Society - an organization that fails to mention any "fundiform" connection on their own website. Why is that if this connection is so foundational to the formation of this group and the beginnings of modern science?

[Lucretius II]

Dave's big problem in seeing the British Isles, the UK whatever you want to call it, is that like some recent "famous" converts to Catholicism here in the UK (Anne Widdecombe and Tony Blair for two) from the OUTSIDE it looks completley different to what it actually is when you are INSIDE.

WE have an established Protestant religion and so to "fundies" like Dave this seems to be exactly what their fantasy country should be ,a theocracy in which every "citizen"* is a "subject"* of a religious leader i.e the reigning monarch.

(* Technically we are not "citizens" as in having inalienable rights [Hence we don't technically have a written Bill of Rights] but are"subjects" or "posessions" of one person the Monarch this is of course nonsense, as in reality this is all just a legal "falsehood" and to all intents and purposes we are "citizens").
This is how it can appear to the ignorant from the OUTSIDE ,however the reality is that attendance at the Established Church is in dare I say it rapid decline, I recently read that Sunday attendance at Catholic churches is significantly higher here in England (not sure about the other component parts such as Scotland, Wales and N.I ) than the good old C of E.
Wales itself has a significant Methodist( i.e non Establishished religion) population.
My family background is of old style Catholics who refused to convert to the C of E ,very useful for tracing my family tree ,as they paid a "religion tax" every year to the authorities called a recusancy fee and all this was written down in detailed records for hundreds of years.
We may appear to be a theocracy to those who have never studied our history and those who have never even been here but in fact the vast majority of the population is at best indifferent to religion as a whole or follow non Established religions, whether they be Catholicism ,Methodism and increasingly Islam and Hinduism alongside the remnants of the C of E .
Yes there are still lots of people who are baptised into the C of E as there have been for generations,but most just aren't that bothered by religion in any form ,even those who attend church regularly seem to do so more out of habit or as a social event rather than as a result of any really deep religious beliefs,hence the fact that the average age of those who attend is generally in the post 60 age group (one or two evangelical churches do I must admit buck this trend ).
How else can you explain how the C of E Bishop of Durham (not the present one ) a senior member of the church once famously not only stated that he had doubts about the resurrection of Christ but even hinted, that he was at best a "vague deist" and yet still retained his position until his death.

[ck1]

Originally Posted by LuisGarcia

I'm still laughing. Dave thinks Britain is an example of a theocratic nation?

You've never been here, have you Dave?

I am reminded of a visit to England about 10 years ago with my family. We were there on Easter Sunday and we decided to go to morning services at St. Paul's Cathedral. There were maybe about 25 people rattling around in there.

[LuisGarcia]

Originally Posted by ck1

I am reminded of a visit to England about 10 years ago with my family. We were there on Easter Sunday and we decided to go to morning services at St. Paul's Cathedral. There were maybe about 25 people rattling around in there.

Wow, did they have a big name guest speaker or something?

[post tenebras lux]

Oliver Cromwell wasn't executed after the Stewart restoration, as he was already dead and buried.

However, the royalists did dig up his corpse and behead him, so maybe that's where the confusion crept in.

And if the Bishop of Durham being refered to was David Jenkins, then he's not actually dead yet, although he retired in 1994. I attended his consecration/coronation in York Minister back in 1984. Wiki claims that he was banned from preaching in 2006 after swearing during a sermon, but I hadn't heard that one before now.

[ck1]

Originally Posted by LuisGarcia

Wow, did they have a big name guest speaker or something?

Actually, they herded everyone to the front few pews before starting the service.

I was also surprised to find that the toilets in the cathedral were locked up during the service (they were obviously not expecting a crowd). I had to take my daughter to the nearest public WC - about 2 blocks away.

[Lucretius II]

Originally Posted by post tenebras lux

Oliver Cromwell wasn't executed after the Stewart restoration, as he was already dead and buried.

However, the royalists did dig up his corpse and behead him, so maybe that's where the confusion crept in.

And if the Bishop of Durham being refered to was David Jenkins, then he's not actually dead yet, although he retired in 1994. I attended his consecration/coronation in York Minister back in 1984. Wiki claims that he was banned from preaching in 2006 after swearing during a sermon, but I hadn't heard that one before now.

Fair enough I thought he had snuffed it
See Dave thats what you do IF you are HONEST,you admit your mistakes (a foreign concept to you I know )

[LuisGarcia]

Originally Posted by ck1

Actually, they herded everyone to the front few pews before starting the service.

I was also surprised to find that the toilets in the cathedral were locked up during the service (they were obviously not expecting a crowd). I had to take my daughter to the nearest public WC - about 2 blocks away.

Well, everyone that normally goes has their own bag.

[LuisGarcia]

Do the more seasoned Dave watchers think he'll come back to defend this OP, then?

[Mike PSS]

Originally Posted by post tenebras lux

Oliver Cromwell wasn't executed after the Stewart restoration, as he was already dead and buried.

However, the royalists did dig up his corpse and behead him, so maybe that's where the confusion crept in.

But they were catholic. And Dave doesn't take kindly to them folks either.

[Ray Moscow]

Most of the royalist folks were Protestant at the time of the Restoration, and ever since then, too -- except for the freethinkers, some of whom are royalist, too.

Anyway in reference to the OP: British civilisation far predates even the Romans, and it was pagan -- like everybody else on earth at that time.

[ericmurphy]

Originally Posted by teucer

From your worthless blog:

Now bearing in mind that the reformation did not begin until 1536, late in the Renaissance, and that England had been extant as a kingdom since before the millennium, would you care to retract this ignorant statement?

Clueless Dave Hawkins, once again.

Dave's definition of "fundamentalist" is completely wrong, too. It's his own personal definition that has nothing to do with reality. Christian fundamentalism dates from the late nineteenth century, so his claim that either the U.S. or the U.K. was founded by "fundamentalists" is in the same league as the Soviet Union's claims to have invented everything under the sun.

[post tenebras lux]

Originally Posted by Mike PSS

But they were catholic. And Dave doesn't take kindly to them folks either.

Although they were catholic (as in the CofE believing "in one holy, catholic and apostolic Church"), they weren't Roman Catholic when Charles II returned from France, it was his brother James VII&II who converted to the dark side.

[Dave Hawkins]

Originally Posted by ck1

Hi Dave!

While you are here, why not comment on Guzman's "scientific" observations? Do you agree with anything he has said?

Oh, and I see that your link is to your blog discussion of the Royal Society - an organization that fails to mention any "fundiform" connection on their own website. Why is that if this connection is so foundational to the formation of this group and the beginnings of modern science?

Sure. I agree with a lot of what he said.

Oh, and I see that your link is to your blog discussion of the Royal Society - an organization that fails to mention any "fundiform" connection on their own website. Why is that if this connection is so foundational to the formation of this group and the beginnings of modern science?

Because they are revisionists (either they are ignorant or they are lying by omission) and perhaps don't like the fact that it was Puritans who founded the Royal Society. How about we contact them and inform them about this rather large omission, shall we?

[Dave Hawkins]

Originally Posted by Monkey Pants

Un-be-fucking-lievable.

I reckon this deserves its own thread...

So I take it you disagree. Why?

BTW ... the thread title is very dishonest. I don't think that Britain was ever a theocracy. I would suggest, Dean, that you change it. A more honest title (since you are attaching my name as the thread starter) would be "Fundies Built the British Empire"