Titan’s Underground Water Lends Support to Creationist Walt Brown

[Dave Hawkins]

"We believe that about 62 miles beneath the ice and organic-rich surface is an internal ocean of liquid water mixed with ammonia," -- Bryan Stiles of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in, Pasadena, California.

Hmmm ... another body in our solar system with an underground ocean. Maybe Creationist Walt Brown's "Underground Ocean on Earth Prior to the Global Flood" idea isn't so crazy after all! Don't forget about Enceladus, that other little moon of Saturn's which not only has underground water but is also still spewing. And don't forget about Venus which--like the postulated event on earth at the time of the Global Flood--got a total resurfacing job in a single event at some point in the past.

You can read about Walt Brown's Hydroplate Theory at http://www.creationscience.com/onlin...Overview2.html

You could also search my blog for the word "hydroplate" as I have written about it several times.
Here's the article which appears today in Science Magazine...

Science 21 March 2008:
Vol. 319. no. 5870, pp. 1649 - 1651

Titan's Rotation Reveals an Internal Ocean and Changing Zonal Winds

Ralph D. Lorenz,1* Bryan W. Stiles,2 Randolph L. Kirk,3 Michael D. Allison,4 Paolo Persi del Marmo,5 Luciano Iess,5 Jonathan I. Lunine,6 Steven J. Ostro,2 Scott Hensley2

I don't know about you, but I think it's high time that geologists quit laughing at Walt Brown, as many mainstream scientists have laughed at pioneers of the past, and start investigating his theory in a serious way. Sorry, but mainstream theories for the explanation of the geologic record on Planet Earth are weak.

Comments?

[mung bean]

Davey boy! You're back! and with fresh tard too!

Lemme guess: all that Eastery stuff got you inspired to go out and battle teh heathens again, yes?

So have you given up on horseshoe crabs as well as varves now, Davey? Hmmm. Methinks you must've been kinda lacking in support for your ramblings on those topics.

Tell me Davey boy, before the inevitable demolition of your latest prating begins, given how many huge holes have already been blasted through Walt's claims in several threads on several forums what makes you think that Titan is enough to save him?

[Tartantyco]

-I'm thinking that weed+reading Dave's posts=AWESOME!

[mung bean]

-I'm thinking that weed+reading Dave's posts=AWESOME!

I'm thinking that's a combination that will likely result in severe (organic, Davey) brain damage. Mind you I wouldn't be blaming the weed.

[Lasting Damage]

sorry, what relevance is that to the biblical global flood and walt brown's hydroplate scenario? "there can be liquid water below the surface"?

Forgive me if I'm not entirely impressed, but Titan is a completely different environment to the earth in terms of mass, history and internal thermal generation systems, surface temperature and maximal core temperature. Then on top of that "there is liquid water below a moon of saturn" is not exactly good backup for "there were several hundred trillion hydrogen bombs worth of energy stored in superheated water in a globally spanning underground cavity supported by quartz pillars which all got released into a single giant jettison event which fired the water and a significant part of earth's crust at velocities exceeding 11km/s which were then distributed evenly in the asteroid belt, avoiding several planets and the kirkwood gaps along the way, meanwhile, while the giant cavity was emptrying, the continental plates shot around the planet of speeds up to about 40m/s"

[snorkild]

Adam and Eve on skates? Is this supported by the Holy Babble?

[mung bean]

I can see I'm going to have to follow this thread. Joyous times await, if only Davey can find the balls to stay and fight his corner.

[Plognark]

Goodness, you mean if it gets cold the surface of a body of water freezes? Shocking.

[snorkild]

I think it's high time that geologists quit laughing at Walt Brown, as many mainstream scientists have laughed at pioneers of the past

They laughed at Galileo, but they also laughed at Dave Hawkins.

[Plognark]

I think it's high time that geologists quit laughing at Walt Brown, as many mainstream scientists have laughed at pioneers of the past

They laughed at Galileo, but they also laughed at Dave Hawkins.

Kids laugh at Bozo the clown too, and he's not even funny.

[mung bean]

Goodness, you mean if it gets cold the surface of a body of water freezes? Shocking.

Oh fuck, I suppose someone has to go and get all scientific.

Ok Dave, got a question for ya; how come if Titan is subjected to shitloads of tidal forces for yonks the water, which must be genuine Walty superheated water by now, hasn't melted any of that 62 miles of ice?
Wouldn't you think.... Ok, I take that back. What I mean is that ice sorta melts when you put it next to steaming hot water. Just a thought.

[Dave Hawkins]

sorry, what relevance is that to the biblical global flood and walt brown's hydroplate scenario? "there can be liquid water below the surface"?

Forgive me if I'm not entirely impressed, but Titan is a completely different environment to the earth in terms of mass, history and internal thermal generation systems, surface temperature and maximal core temperature. Then on top of that "there is liquid water below a moon of saturn" is not exactly good backup for "there were several hundred trillion hydrogen bombs worth of energy stored in superheated water in a globally spanning underground cavity supported by quartz pillars which all got released into a single giant jettison event which fired the water and a significant part of earth's crust at velocities exceeding 11km/s which were then distributed evenly in the asteroid belt, avoiding several planets and the kirkwood gaps along the way, meanwhile, while the giant cavity was emptrying, the continental plates shot around the planet of speeds up to about 40m/s"

The interesting part to me is that people have laughed at Walt's idea that there was a time in the past when there was an underground ocean below earth's surface. But the fact that there exists today an underground ocean on a body not all that much smaller than earth makes Walt's idea seem much more reasonable. Not sure how one can miss this. Remember, my logic is NOT ... Subsurface ocean on Titan, therefore, there WAS a sub surface ocean on Earth. No, no. Give me a little more credit than that please. My logic is ... Subsurface ocean on Titan, therefore, subsurface oceans on planets are possible (not an outlandish idea), therefore a subsurface ocean on earth at some point in the past is a possibility we scientists should investigate.

BTW ... Here's a size comparison ...

[mung bean]

Remember, my logic is NOT ... Subsurface ocean on Titan, therefore, there WAS a sub surface ocean on Earth. No, no. Give me a little more credit than that please. My logic is ... Subsurface ocean on Titan, therefore, subsurface oceans on planets are possible (not an outlandish idea), therefore a subsurface ocean on earth at some point in the past is a possibility we scientists should investigate.

BTW ... Here's a size comparison ...

Davey, give it up with the size comparisons.You're not impressing anyone.

Ok, so what you seem to be saying is that having ice on top of water (like the Arctic Ocean, for instance) is proof that a solid granite crust several miles thick can also form on top of water.

Hey that's really clever, Dave. Nobel Prize coming up for you kiddo.

[VoxRat]

..."We believe that about 62 miles beneath the ice and organic-rich surface is an internal ocean of liquid water mixed with ammonia," [/I]-- Bryan Stiles of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in, Pasadena, California.

Hmmm ... another body in our solar system with an underground ocean.

Hmmm...
another "Hmmm..." in lieu of any even remotely plausible support for insane wingnut "theories".

... I don't know about you, but I think it's high time that geologists quit laughing at Walt Brown,

Dave, I don't know if you've noticed this, but very, very few geologists are laughing at Walt Brown. (Can you think of any?). That's for exactly the same reason that very few, if any, geologists are laughing at you: because they've never heard of him. There's no reason they should have heard of either of you.

.. Sorry, but mainstream theories for the explanation of the geologic record on Planet Earth are weak.

Dave, Dave, Dave... one more time: can you tell us a single, even introductory text that you've read on the subject?

You don't even know what the "mainstream theories" are, that you're dismissing as "weak". You only know they contradict a literal interpretation of your bible.

Comments?

OK, you asked for "Comments?" ^^^ Here are mine.

[snorkild]

Remember, my logic is NOT ... Subsurface ocean on Titan, therefore, there WAS a sub surface ocean on Earth. No, no. Give me a little more credit than that please. My logic is ... Subsurface ocean on Titan, therefore, subsurface oceans on planets are possible (not an outlandish idea), therefore a subsurface ocean on earth at some point in the past is a possibility we scientists should investigate.

But the cover above the (suggested) "ocean" on Titan consists of material with a density about equal to the ocean below.
Do you imagine the same being the case with regard to the pre-flood Earth?

What was the crust made off? Styrofoam?

[derwood]

"We believe that about 62 miles beneath the ice and organic-rich surface is an internal ocean of liquid water mixed with ammonia," -- Bryan Stiles of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in, Pasadena, California.

Hmmm ... another body in our solar system with an underground ocean. Maybe Creationist Walt Brown's "Underground Ocean on Earth Prior to the Global Flood" idea isn't so crazy after all! Don't forget about Enceladus, that other little moon of Saturn's which not only has underground water but is also still spewing. And don't forget about Venus which--like the postulated event on earth at the time of the Global Flood--got a total resurfacing job in a single event at some point in the past.

You can read about Walt Brown's Hydroplate Theory at http://www.creationscience.com/onlin...Overview2.html

You could also search my blog for the word "hydroplate" as I have written about it several times.
Here's the article which appears today in Science Magazine...

Science 21 March 2008:
Vol. 319. no. 5870, pp. 1649 - 1651

Titan's Rotation Reveals an Internal Ocean and Changing Zonal Winds

Ralph D. Lorenz,1* Bryan W. Stiles,2 Randolph L. Kirk,3 Michael D. Allison,4 Paolo Persi del Marmo,5 Luciano Iess,5 Jonathan I. Lunine,6 Steven J. Ostro,2 Scott Hensley2

I don't know about you, but I think it's high time that geologists quit laughing at Walt Brown, as many mainstream scientists have laughed at pioneers of the past, and start investigating his theory in a serious way. Sorry, but mainstream theories for the explanation of the geologic record on Planet Earth are weak.

Comments?

Here's a comment - it looks like you missed the part about the surface being ICE. You know, ice floats on water (or in this case, water/ammonia ice floats on water/ammonia). That is not quite the same things as, say ROCK.

Is it?

[mung bean]

Hey look guys, you're all forgetting the important stuff. Davey reckons Titan is an example of what could happen on Earth. So are there fucking varves and horseshoe crabs on Titan? No, there are not. That means Titan and Earth aren't comparable. Sorry Dave, you're fucked.

[Dave Hawkins]

"We believe that about 62 miles beneath the ice and organic-rich surface is an internal ocean of liquid water mixed with ammonia," -- Bryan Stiles of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in, Pasadena, California.

Hmmm ... another body in our solar system with an underground ocean. Maybe Creationist Walt Brown's "Underground Ocean on Earth Prior to the Global Flood" idea isn't so crazy after all! Don't forget about Enceladus, that other little moon of Saturn's which not only has underground water but is also still spewing. And don't forget about Venus which--like the postulated event on earth at the time of the Global Flood--got a total resurfacing job in a single event at some point in the past.

You can read about Walt Brown's Hydroplate Theory at http://www.creationscience.com/onlin...Overview2.html

You could also search my blog for the word "hydroplate" as I have written about it several times.
Here's the article which appears today in Science Magazine...

Science 21 March 2008:
Vol. 319. no. 5870, pp. 1649 - 1651

Titan's Rotation Reveals an Internal Ocean and Changing Zonal Winds

Ralph D. Lorenz,1* Bryan W. Stiles,2 Randolph L. Kirk,3 Michael D. Allison,4 Paolo Persi del Marmo,5 Luciano Iess,5 Jonathan I. Lunine,6 Steven J. Ostro,2 Scott Hensley2

I don't know about you, but I think it's high time that geologists quit laughing at Walt Brown, as many mainstream scientists have laughed at pioneers of the past, and start investigating his theory in a serious way. Sorry, but mainstream theories for the explanation of the geologic record on Planet Earth are weak.

Comments?

Here's a comment - it looks like you missed the part about the surface being ICE. You know, ice floats on water (or in this case, water/ammonia ice floats on water/ammonia). That is not quite the same things as, say ROCK.

Is it?

Well first, I'm not sure the surface is just ice. Note this from the Science Daily article ...

"With its organic dunes, lakes, channels and mountains, Titan has one of the most varied, active and Earth-like surfaces in the solar system," said Ralph Lorenz, lead author of the paper and Cassini radar scientist at the Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory in Laurel, Md.,

Secondly, even if it was all ice, don't forget that the surface of the earth also floats on the internal molten core. Why could it not have floated on an internal "molten ice" (i.e. water) core at some time in the past?

[Elká]

-I'm thinking that weed+reading Dave's posts=AWESOME!

I'm thinking that's a combination that will likely result in severe (organic, Davey) brain damage. Mind you I wouldn't be blaming the weed.

Mung you old bean you, it's not the weed or the reading of davey that's dangerous, it's the falling out of your chair while laughing that's dangerous. That floor is hard!

Elká

[Pappy Jack]

So Dave Hawkins of kids4truth and truthmatters.info is once more bottom-feeding on scientific research in the hopes (expectation) of finding something (anything) that can be co-opted into being interpreted as support for Uncle Wally's zany hydropants theory.

I see several holes have already been poked in this new 'find'. On my part, I was particularly entertained by Dave's claim that Titan is 'not much smaller than [E]arth' with accompanying photo to 'prove' this and thus add credence to the idea that 'sort of similar' = 'exactly the same as'. Well here are a few comparative figures for Earth and Titan:

Mass (kg): 5.976e+24/1.35e+23
Equatorial radius (km): 6,378.14/2,575
Mean density (gm/cubic cm): 5.515/1.88
Escape velocity (km/sec): 29.79/2.65

Hmmm, 'not much smaller than'?

And how much 'not smaller than [E]arth' is Enceladus? Or is this not so relevant a comparison in this particular instance for some reason or other?

And Dave is still using the 'resurfacing' of Venus some 300-500 mya (in a globe-encompassing catastrophe that would have wiped out any life-forms above the bacterial) as 'evidence' for YOGF. That Noah fellow sure had to put up with a lot: praise the Lawd for the powers of gopher!

Perhaps Dave should take on board the unpleasant fact that the conclusions drawn about the geology, etc of Titan, Enceladus and Venus are based on observed evidence, as are the conclusions of the 'weak' 'mainstream theories' about Earth's geology that Dave is so sure are wrong, while Wally's ravings are largely based on fantasy and a determination to make the facts fit the model in any way he can. But then Walt's ravings support Dave's YEC fanaticism, while 'mainstream theories' unfortunately don't, so a priori they must be wrong and demonstrably so.

[Gojira]

even if it was all ice, don't forget that the surface of the earth also floats on the internal molten core. Why could it not have floated on an internal "molten ice" (i.e. water) core at some time in the past?

Archimedes to the white courtesy phone please!

[snorkild]

Secondly, even if it was all ice, don't forget that the surface of the earth also floats on the internal molten core. Why could it not have floated on an internal "molten ice" (i.e. water) core at some time in the past?

What's the density of earth's molten core compared to the rocks that rests on it?

What's the density of water?

Dave, If you don't want to answer this then please explain why.

[Lasting Damage]

Is it?

Well first, I'm not sure the surface is just ice. Note this from the Science Daily article ...

"With its organic dunes, lakes, channels and mountains, Titan has one of the most varied, active and Earth-like surfaces in the solar system," said Ralph Lorenz, lead author of the paper and Cassini radar scientist at the Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory in Laurel, Md.,

Secondly, even if it was all ice, don't forget that the surface of the earth also floats on the internal molten core. Why could it not have floated on an internal "molten ice" (i.e. water) core at some time in the past?[/QUOTE]

when one of the peasants in monty python suggested that very small pebbles float, he was joking.

[snorkild]

when one of the peasants in monty python suggested that very small pebbles float, he was joking.

But, hey, if Jesus could walk on water, why not a whole fucking load of gravel?

[Pappy Jack]

Well first, I'm not sure the surface is just ice. Note this from the Science Daily article ...

"With its organic dunes, lakes, channels and mountains, Titan has one of the most varied, active and Earth-like surfaces in the solar system," said Ralph Lorenz, lead author of the paper and Cassini radar scientist at the Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory in Laurel, Md.,

Secondly, even if it was all ice, don't forget that the surface of the earth also floats on the internal molten core. Why could it not have floated on an internal "molten ice" (i.e. water) core at some time in the past?

Fair points as far as they go, but given the comparative densities:

Earth: 5.515 gm/cubic cm
Titan: 1.88 gm/cubic cm
Ice: 0.999765 gm/cubic cm

it is clearly the case that the surface of Titan is significantly different from the surface of Earth. To advance the one in support of claims about the other is misleading.