Lake Suigetsu: Flocculence Requires a Reevaluation

[Elká]

Lake Suigetsu (and Lillooet, and Silhaelongwan, and Korttijärvi, and Baikal

What's with all these cosmic lake names all having 'varves'? Why couldn't they be something easy like Clear Lake or Moon Lake or Deep Lake?

They are purposely designed to keep the perpetually clueless like yourself confused for as long as possible.

So sorry davey but it's our job to make this as hard for you as we can.

Elká

[Febble]

Until you address my posts, Dave. You know the ones I mean.

The ones that ask whether or not you still hold that radiocarbon dating is broadly accurate for material younger than 3500 YBP, and, if so, why that doesn't mean that the Suigetsu layers are varves (i.e. annual layers), and if so, why the linear correlation of radiocarbon age with depth and varve count continues right through layers alleged by you to be laid in a single year during the Flood.

Your failure to even acknowledge my posts on this matter leads me to suspect that you realise that they present a major problem for your view.

Just sayin'

Lizzie

[Dave Hawkins]

Heh. I read through the thread and saw Davey's wailing cry that he couldn't find studies on "thin" laminae less than...eh, .5mm or whatever it was...thus demonstrating that Davey is as inept at LOOKING for data as he is at comprehending data given him. So...I remembered that I might have something to add here that I had saved. Plus I despise the shit-licking little liar (he ran away from the last discussion on this, too)

I kept the following references from our old discussion at IIDB or wherever it was at:

Lake Baikal sediments average about 0.04 to 0.17 mm accumulation per year
Lago Puyehue sediments average ~ 0.5 to 1 mm/yr

In particular, the Lake Puyehue (Chile) varves were studied from 1980-2000 and the varve thickness record is known from limnological readings. Additionally, the varves correlate with known climatological and geological events and radiometric dates. That gives a VERY strong basis for study -- and not "just" the radiometric dates that little Davey says he can't trust...though he's never demonstrated flaws in them.

Baikal sedimentation studies include the TECHNICAP sediment traps that were deployed in Lake Baikal. from 1996 by the GEOPASS-NERC project measuring deposition rates and organismal events. First results of sedimentation rate calculations show highest values on Posolskaya Banka (0.149 cmy-1), and lower values on Continent Ridge (0.057 cmy-1) and Vydrino Shoulder (0.052 cmy-1).

Lake Baikal sediments average about 0.04 to 0.17 mm accumulation per year See:

Boës, Xavier (2005). High resolution sedimentological studies of lacustrine series, search for annual climatic proxies and interhemispheric comparison (examples of Lake Baikal, Siberia, 50 °N and Lake District, Chile, 40°S.) Ph.D dissertation. http://www.icdp-online.org/contenido...S_PhD_2005.pdf (15 MB)

Sturm, M.; Vologina, E. G.; Baster, I.; Sinnet, B.; Mackay, A. W.; Ryves, D. (2003) Recent sedimentation in Lake Baikal. EGS - AGU - EUG Joint Assembly, Abstracts from the meeting held in Nice, France, 6 - 11 April 2003, abstract #2822

High-resolution TECHNICAP sediment traps have been deployed in Lake Baikal since 1996....First results of sedimentation rate calculations show highest values on Posolskaya Banka (0.149 cmy-1), and lower values on Continent Ridge (0.057 cmy-1) and Vydrino Shoulder (0.052 cmy-1). http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2003EAEJA.....2822S

Flower R.J., Battarbee R.W., Lees J., Levina O.V., Jewson D., Mackay A.W., Ryves D.V., Sturm M., Vologina E.G. (1998) A GEOPASS-NERC project on diatom deposition and sediment accumulation in Lake Baikal, Siberia. Freshwater Biol. Assoc.; 1998; 11: 16-29.

Flower R.J., Ryves D.M., Mackay A.W., Battarbee R.W., Sturm M. (1997) Diatom deposition and sediment laminations in Lake Baikal, Siberia. Wuerzburger Geographische Manuskripte: Abstract Volume; 1997; 41.

Sturm,M., V.Matta, M.Schurter, A.Zwyssig, E.Vologina, O.Levina, R.Gnatovsky, R.J.Flower, D.Ryves, J.Lees & D.Jewson (1997) Pattern of recent sedimentation in Lake Baikal. Results of high-resolution traps and short cores. Vol.abstract 7th Paleolimnology Conference August 1997, Heiligenkreuztal/Germany

Appleby P.G., Flower R.J., Mackay A.W., Rose N.L. (1998) Paleolimnological assessment of recent environmental change in Lake Baikal: sediment chronology. J. Paleolimnol.; 1998; 20: 119-133.

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More On Baikal:
Battarbee R., Mackay (1999) A. Biogenic composition of recent sediments: diatoms. Baikal Symposium and 1st Baikal-Sed Workshop: Abstracts; Nov. 18-22, 1999; Berlin / Potsdam; 1999: 25-27.

Bezrukova E.V. (1999) Biogenic composition of Lake Baikal recent sediments (pollen and spores of plants). Baikal Symposium and 1st Baikal-Sed Workshop: Abstracts; Nov. 18-22, 1999; Berlin / Potsdam; 1999: 24.

Bulnayev A.I. (1995) Neutron Activation Analysis Investigation of the Composition and Geochemical Peculiarities of Lake Baikal Bottom Sediments. Analyst; 1995; 120(5): 1445-1452.

Callender E., Deike R.G., Rossmann R. (1991) Geochemical and mineralogic indicators of sedimentation in Lake Baikal, South-Eastern Siberia, USSR. Eos Trans. AGU: Spring Meeting; 1991;72(17.V42C-12.1630h): 307.

Demory, F., Nowaczyk,N.R.,Witt, A., Oberhansli, H., (2005) .High-resolution magneto stratigraphy of late Quaternary sediments from Lake Baikal, Siberia: timing of intracontinental paleoclimatic responses.Glob.Planet.Change 46,167-186.

De Batist M. Recent and sub-recent sedimentation in Lake Baikal insights from seismic records.(1999) Baikal Symposium and 1st Baikal-Sed Workshop: Abstracts; Nov. 18-22, 1999; Berlin / Potsdam 1999: 28-29.

Francus P., Sturm M. Suspended particles and sediment formation..(1999) Baikal Symposium and 1st Baikal-Sed Workshop: Abstracts; Nov. 18-22, 1999; Berlin / Potsdam; 1999: 17-18.

Goldberg E.L., Phedorin M.A., Grachev M.A., Bobrov V.A., Dolbnya I.P., Khlystov O.M., Levina O.V., Ziborova G.A.(2000) Geochemical signals of orbital forcing in the records of paleoclimates found in the sediments of Lake Baikal. Nucl. Instrum. and Meth. in Phys. Res. A; 2000; 448(1-2): 384-393

Granina,L.Z., Grachev,M.A., Karabanov,E.B., Kuptsov,V.M., Shimaraeva,M.K., Williams,D.F., (1993) Accumulation of biogenic silica in bottom sediments of Baikal. Russ.J.Geol.Geophys.34,126-135

Granina L., Werhli B..(1999) The sediment-water interface in Lake Baikal. Baikal Symposium and 1st Baikal-Sed Workshop: Abstracts; Nov. 18-22, 1999; Berlin / Potsdam; 1999: 21-22.

Karabanov E., Bezrukova E.V., Granina L., Inouchi Y., Laso F., Letunova P., Mukhina V.,
Shimaraeva M., Stolbova E. (1992) Climatic sedimentation rhythms of Baikal sediments. International Project on Paleolimnology and Late Cenozoic Climate / IPPCCE Newsletter; 1992; 6: 21-30.

Karabanov E.B., Colman S.M., Nelson K.H. (1992) Pelagic sedimentary complexes and sedimentation conditions in Lake Baikal, Siberia. Eos Trans. AGU: Fall Meeting / Suppl.; 1992; 73(43)

Peck, J.A., King, J.W., Colman,S.M., Kravchinsky,V. (1994) A rock magnetic record from Lake Baikal, Siberia: evidence for Quaternary climate change. Earth Planet.Sci.Lett.122, 221-238.

Piotrowska, N., Bluszcz,A., Demske,D., Granoszewski,W., Heumann,G (2004) Extraction and AMS radiocarbon dating of pollen from Lake Baikal sediments. Radiocarbon. vol. 46 (1), no 1 (17 ref.), pp. 181-187

Popovskaya,G.I., (2000) .Ecological monitoring of phytoplankton in Lake Baikal. Aquat.Ecosyst.HealthManag.3, 215-225.

For Both Chilean and Baikal data:

Boës, Xavier (2005). High resolution sedimentological studies of lacustrine series, search for annual climatic proxies and interhemispheric comparison (examples of Lake Baikal, Siberia, 50 °N and Lake District, Chile, 40°S.) Ph.D dissertation. http://www.icdp-online.org/contenido...S_PhD_2005.pdf

For Puyehue

Arnaud F., Magand O., Chapron E., Bertrand S., Boës X., and Mélières M.A., (2006) .Radionuclide dating (210Pb, 137Cs, 241Am) of recent lake sediments in a highly active geodynamic setting (Lakes Puyehue and Icalma-Chilean Lake District). Science of the Total Environment Volume 366, Issues 2-3 , 1 August 2006, Pages 837-850 http://www.limnogeology.ethz.ch/Arnaud2006.pdf

"radionuclides can be used to provide approximate dates for sediment. Independent confirmation of these dates can be provided by varve counting and/or the recognition of historical events. For Lake Puyehue, this approach has allowed particular sediment features to be related to the effects of the 1960 Chilean earthquake (Mw 9.5) on the lake basin and its catchment area. For Lake Icalma, there is a good agreement between radionuclide dates and the dates of the three tephra layers formed during large eruptions of the Llaima volcano in 1946, 1917 and 1883. For both lakes, artificial radionuclide fallout, which culminated in 1965, provides more robust chronological information than 210Pb dating."

The sediments present several intercalated beds, i.e. tephra layers related to volcanic events and/or homogeneous layers related to major seismic events (Fig. 4). The regional volcanic activity recorded in Lago Puyehue sediments is mainly related to Osorno (41°S) and Cordon Caulle/Puyehue (40°S) volcanoes (Bertrand et al. this issue). The seismic layers recorded in Lago Puyehue sediments are related to the strong tectonic activity reported between 39-41°S .

Bertrand S., Charlet F., Charlier B., Renson V., Fagel N., (2008). Climate variability of southern Chile since the Last Glacial Maximum : a continuous sedimentological record from Lago Puyehue, 40°S. J. of Paleolimn. Volume 39, Number 2 / February, 2008

Bertrand S.,( 2005). Sédimentation lacustre postérieure au dernier maximum glaciaire dans les lacs Icalma et Puyehue (Chili méridional) : reconstitution de la variabilité climatique et des
événements sismo-tectoniques. Thèse, Université de Liège, 266 pp.

Bertrand S., Boës X., Castiaux J., Charlet F., Urrutia R., Espinoza C., Charlier B., Lepoint G. and
Fagel N., (2005). Temporal evolution of sediment supply in Puyehue Lake (Southern Chile) during
the last 600 years: climatic significance. Quat. Res. 64, 163-175

Campos H., Steffen W., Agüero G., Parra O., and Zuniga L., (1989) . Estudios Limnologicos en el lago Puyehue (Chile): Morfometria, factores fisicos y quimicos, plankton y productividad primaria. Medio Ambiente. 10: 36-53

Pezoa Gutiérrez L.S., (2003). Recopilacion y analisis de la variation de las temperatures (periodo 1965-2001) y las precipitaciones (periodo 1931-2001) a partir de la informacion de estaciones meteorologicas de Chile entre los 33°y 53° de latitude Sur. Universidad Austral de Chile, Thesis, 99 pp.

Soto D., (2002). Patrones oligotróficos en lagos del sur de Chile: relevancia de los nutrientes y de la profundidad de mezcla. Revista Chilena de Historia Natural. 75: 377-393.

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Other relevant studies:

Boës, Xavier and Nathalie Fagel.(2005) Impregnation method for detecting annual laminations in sediment cores: An overview. Sedimentary Geology, Volume 179, Issues 3-4, 15 August 2005, Pages 185-194

Brauer, A. and J. F. W. Negendank.(2002) The value of annually laminated lake sediments in Palaeoenvironment reconstruction. Quaternary International, Volume 88, Issue 1, February 2002, Pages 1-3

Brauer A., (2004). Annually laminated lake sediments and their palaeoclimatic relevance. In: Fischer H., Kumke T., Lohmann G., Flöser G., Miller H., von Storch H., and Negendank J.F.W. (Eds.) The Climate in Historical Times. Towards a Synthesis of Holocene Proxy Data and Climate Models. Springer, pp. 109-128.

Brauer, A. and J. F. W. Negendank (2004) The European Lake Drilling Programme (ELDP) from 1996-2001: high-resolution lake sediment records in climate and environment variability studies. Quaternary International, Volume 122, Issue 1, 2004, Pages 1-5

Card V., (1997) . Varve-counting by the annual pattern of diatoms accumulated in the sediments of Big Watab Lake, Minnesota, AD 1837-1990. Boreas 26, 103-112.

Dean, Walter E., Anderson, Roger Y., Bradbury, J. Platt, and David M. Anderson, (2002) . A 1500-year record of climatic and environmental change in Elk Lake, Minnesota I: Varve thickness and gray-scale density. Journal of Paleolimnology, 27:287-299.

Desloges, Joseph R.(1994) Varve Deposition and the Sediment Yield Record at Three Small Lakes of the Southern Canadian Cordillera. Arctic and Alpine Research, Vol. 26, No. 2 (May, 1994), pp. 130-140

Dickman, Michael (1985) Seasonal succession and microlamina formation in a meromictic lake displaying varved sediments. Sedimentology 32 (1), 109-118.

Hammer, Theodore U. (1994) Life and Times of Five Saskatchewan Saline Meromictic Lakes. Internationale Revue der gesamten Hydrobiologie und Hydrographie 79:2, 235

Ising, Jonas.(2001) Late Weichselian pollen stratigraphy, clay varve chronology and palaeomagnetic secular variations in Lake Bolmen, Småland, south Sweden Boreas: An International Journal of Quaternary Research , Volume 30, Issue 3, 2001, Pages 189 - 204

Kemp A.E.S., Dean J., Pearce R.B., and Pike J., (2001). Recognition and analysis of bedding and sediment fabric features. In: Last W.M., Smol J.P. (Eds.), Tracking Environmental Change
Using Lake sediments. Physical and geochemical Methods. Kluwer Academic Publishers,
Dordrecht, the Nederlands. Vol. 2, pp. 7-22

Lotter; André F. and Gerry Lemcke (1999) Methods for preparing and counting biochemical varves. Boreas Volume28, Issue 2, June 1999, pages 243 - 252

Lotter, AF; Sturm, M; Teranes, JL; Wehrli, B (1997) Varve formation since 1885 and high-resolution varve analyses in hypertrophic Baldeggersee (Switzerland). Aquatic Sciences. Vol. 59, no. 4, pp. 304-325. 1997. http://library.eawag.ch/EAWAG-Public...awag_02384.pdf

Ojala, Antti E. K. and Mia Tiljander.(2003) Testing the fidelity of sediment chronology: comparison of varve and paleomagnetic results from Holocene lake sediments from central Finland. Quaternary Science Reviews, Volume 22, Issues 15-17, July-August 2003, Pages 1787-1803

Tiljander M; Ojala A.; Saarinen T.; Snowball I. (2002) Documentation of the physical properties of annually laminated (varved) sediments at a sub-annual to decadal resolution for environmental interpretation. Quaternary International , Volume 88, Number 1, February 2002, pp. 5-12(8)

Vos, H. ; Sanchez, A.; Zolitschka, B.; et al. (1997). Solar Activity Variations Recorded in Varved Sediments from the Crater Lake of Holzmaar a Maar Lake in the Westeifel Volcanic Field, Germany . Surveys in Geophysics, vol. 18, Issue 2, p.163-182

Zolitchka B., (1996). High resolution lacustrine sediments and their potential for palaeoclimatic reconstruction. In : Jones P.D., Bradley R.S. and Jouzel J. (Eds), Climatic variations and forcing mechanisms of the last 2000 years. NATO ASI series. 141, pp. 453-478.

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Varves correlate with multiple independent curves from multiple disciplines...Paleomagnetic. Corals. Speleothems --
Volcanic tephra IN the varves.
Atmospheric variations IN the varves
Climatic data ranging from El Nino oscillations to Milankovitch cycles and ice ages IN the varves.
Fossils IN the varves.
Radiometric dates FROM the varves.
Paleomagnetic materials IN the varves.
Radiocarbon IN the varves.
Earthquake signatures IN the varves.

On a more personal note, AFDave Hawkins...you should be very, very glad you never decided to take me up on the accepted invitations and challenges you issued (To go to the Grand Canyon to collect samples, Collecting coal samples in the American Southwest). Given your pathological lying and smarmy, simpering personality, you wouldn't have gone home quite the same.

In the meantime -- I hope the kids you lie to...including your own... grow up to literally kick the crap out of you.

Interesting. Especially Lake Baikal as it appears that you have found an example of a lake with a sedimentation rate very close to that claimed for Suigetsu.

The most obvious next questions would be ...

What do the sediment layers look like? What is their composition? Is it alternating light and dark? Are there diatoms? In short ... how closely does the Baikal sediments parallel the Suigetsu sediments?

[Febble]

Interesting. Especially Lake Baikal as it appears that you have found an example of a lake with a sedimentation rate very close to that claimed for Suigetsu.

The most obvious next questions would be ...

What do the sediment layers look like? What is their composition? Is it alternating light and dark? Are there diatoms? In short ... how closely does the Baikal sediments parallel the Suigetsu sediments?

No, those are not the obvious next questions, but yes there are diatoms.

The obvious next questions are the ones I have asked you and which you continue to ignore.

[Pappy Jack]

Interesting. Especially Lake Baikal as it appears that you have found an example of a lake with a sedimentation rate very close to that claimed for Suigetsu.

The most obvious next questions would be ...

What do the sediment layers look like? What is their composition? Is it alternating light and dark? Are there diatoms? In short ... how closely does the Baikal sediments parallel the Suigetsu sediments?

Dave, it's a different lake. Whether or nor it closely parallels Suigetsu is not the crucial issue. The crucial issue is that you scoffed at there being any lake with sedimentation rates as 'ultra-low' as Suigetsu's. You have been given more than enough examples to satisfy any reasonable person, except someone who considers most scientists to be frauds and/or incompetents in the service of the EAC.

Instead of fussing around this red herring like a virgin at a deflowering ceremony, why don't you deal with Febble and Mike's points regarding RM dating of the 'first' 3500 Suigetsu varves?

[Febble]

http://www.rantsnraves.org/showthrea...171#post195171
http://www.rantsnraves.org/showthrea...387#post195387
http://www.rantsnraves.org/showthrea...866#post195866
http://www.rantsnraves.org/showthrea...866#post195866
http://www.rantsnraves.org/showthrea...579#post196579

[VoxRat]

Interesting. Especially Lake Baikal as it appears that you have found an example of a lake with a sedimentation rate very close to that claimed for Suigetsu.

Dave, that's at least the third lake that's been brought to your attention with a deposition rate as low as the historic Suigetsu's. Have you not been reading? And it's at least the second time that Baikal has been specifically brought to your attention in the past 24 hours. Did you miss that?

The most obvious next questions would be ...

What do the sediment layers look like? What is their composition? Is it alternating light and dark? Are there diatoms? In short ... how closely does the Baikal sediments parallel the Suigetsu sediments?

IT'S A DIFFERENT LAKE, DAVE.
There are going to be differences.
The only relevant fact is that the deposition shows a clearly, unmistakeably, abundantly documented, uncontroversially, universally acknowledged by professional scientists, ANNUAL PATTERN.

We're done with this point.
It's proved.*
It's no longer a question.
It's time to move on.

Deal with it



* ETA: To the extent that anything can be considered "proved" in science. (Just to head off another derail on the meanings of words and the consistency of the EAC in schooling creos on how science is done.)

[RAFH]

Good ole davey, as constant as the monsoon. If you offer him evidence he is wrong, he'll claim it doesn't, or that it means something else, or find some little detail he thinks is relevant to obsess over. If you offer him questions, clear, concise, relevant questions, he'll ignore them like the plague, even when asked repeatedly by posters he's written he 'respects' and 'admires' and who've treated him with respect, like Febble. If you contest his conclusions, which often are just "it supports me", he'll either ignore you or respond with some inane and irrelevant post. No matter what, davey will never acknowledge he is wrong, basically, intrinsically, absolutely wrong. That best he can do is "sort of" concede he might not have it absolutely right and then he'll offer some imbecilic rationalization as to why he really is right or that it was just a minor point anyway.

So predictable. Such a buffoon.

[RAFH]

Heh. I read through the thread and saw Davey's wailing cry that he couldn't find studies on "thin" laminae less than...eh, .5mm or whatever it was...thus demonstrating that Davey is as inept at LOOKING for data as he is at comprehending data given him. So...I remembered that I might have something to add here that I had saved. Plus I despise the shit-licking little liar (he ran away from the last discussion on this, too)

I kept the following references from our old discussion at IIDB or wherever it was at:

Lake Baikal sediments average about 0.04 to 0.17 mm accumulation per year
Lago Puyehue sediments average ~ 0.5 to 1 mm/yr

In particular, the Lake Puyehue (Chile) varves were studied from 1980-2000 and the varve thickness record is known from limnological readings. Additionally, the varves correlate with known climatological and geological events and radiometric dates. That gives a VERY strong basis for study -- and not "just" the radiometric dates that little Davey says he can't trust...though he's never demonstrated flaws in them.

Baikal sedimentation studies include the TECHNICAP sediment traps that were deployed in Lake Baikal. from 1996 by the GEOPASS-NERC project measuring deposition rates and organismal events. First results of sedimentation rate calculations show highest values on Posolskaya Banka (0.149 cmy-1), and lower values on Continent Ridge (0.057 cmy-1) and Vydrino Shoulder (0.052 cmy-1).

Lake Baikal sediments average about 0.04 to 0.17 mm accumulation per year See:

Boës, Xavier (2005). High resolution sedimentological studies of lacustrine series, search for annual climatic proxies and interhemispheric comparison (examples of Lake Baikal, Siberia, 50 °N and Lake District, Chile, 40°S.) Ph.D dissertation. http://www.icdp-online.org/contenido...S_PhD_2005.pdf (15 MB)

Sturm, M.; Vologina, E. G.; Baster, I.; Sinnet, B.; Mackay, A. W.; Ryves, D. (2003) Recent sedimentation in Lake Baikal. EGS - AGU - EUG Joint Assembly, Abstracts from the meeting held in Nice, France, 6 - 11 April 2003, abstract #2822

High-resolution TECHNICAP sediment traps have been deployed in Lake Baikal since 1996....First results of sedimentation rate calculations show highest values on Posolskaya Banka (0.149 cmy-1), and lower values on Continent Ridge (0.057 cmy-1) and Vydrino Shoulder (0.052 cmy-1). http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2003EAEJA.....2822S

Flower R.J., Battarbee R.W., Lees J., Levina O.V., Jewson D., Mackay A.W., Ryves D.V., Sturm M., Vologina E.G. (1998) A GEOPASS-NERC project on diatom deposition and sediment accumulation in Lake Baikal, Siberia. Freshwater Biol. Assoc.; 1998; 11: 16-29.

Flower R.J., Ryves D.M., Mackay A.W., Battarbee R.W., Sturm M. (1997) Diatom deposition and sediment laminations in Lake Baikal, Siberia. Wuerzburger Geographische Manuskripte: Abstract Volume; 1997; 41.

Sturm,M., V.Matta, M.Schurter, A.Zwyssig, E.Vologina, O.Levina, R.Gnatovsky, R.J.Flower, D.Ryves, J.Lees & D.Jewson (1997) Pattern of recent sedimentation in Lake Baikal. Results of high-resolution traps and short cores. Vol.abstract 7th Paleolimnology Conference August 1997, Heiligenkreuztal/Germany

Appleby P.G., Flower R.J., Mackay A.W., Rose N.L. (1998) Paleolimnological assessment of recent environmental change in Lake Baikal: sediment chronology. J. Paleolimnol.; 1998; 20: 119-133.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More On Baikal:
Battarbee R., Mackay (1999) A. Biogenic composition of recent sediments: diatoms. Baikal Symposium and 1st Baikal-Sed Workshop: Abstracts; Nov. 18-22, 1999; Berlin / Potsdam; 1999: 25-27.

Bezrukova E.V. (1999) Biogenic composition of Lake Baikal recent sediments (pollen and spores of plants). Baikal Symposium and 1st Baikal-Sed Workshop: Abstracts; Nov. 18-22, 1999; Berlin / Potsdam; 1999: 24.

Bulnayev A.I. (1995) Neutron Activation Analysis Investigation of the Composition and Geochemical Peculiarities of Lake Baikal Bottom Sediments. Analyst; 1995; 120(5): 1445-1452.

Callender E., Deike R.G., Rossmann R. (1991) Geochemical and mineralogic indicators of sedimentation in Lake Baikal, South-Eastern Siberia, USSR. Eos Trans. AGU: Spring Meeting; 1991;72(17.V42C-12.1630h): 307.

Demory, F., Nowaczyk,N.R.,Witt, A., Oberhansli, H., (2005) .High-resolution magneto stratigraphy of late Quaternary sediments from Lake Baikal, Siberia: timing of intracontinental paleoclimatic responses.Glob.Planet.Change 46,167-186.

De Batist M. Recent and sub-recent sedimentation in Lake Baikal insights from seismic records.(1999) Baikal Symposium and 1st Baikal-Sed Workshop: Abstracts; Nov. 18-22, 1999; Berlin / Potsdam 1999: 28-29.

Francus P., Sturm M. Suspended particles and sediment formation..(1999) Baikal Symposium and 1st Baikal-Sed Workshop: Abstracts; Nov. 18-22, 1999; Berlin / Potsdam; 1999: 17-18.

Goldberg E.L., Phedorin M.A., Grachev M.A., Bobrov V.A., Dolbnya I.P., Khlystov O.M., Levina O.V., Ziborova G.A.(2000) Geochemical signals of orbital forcing in the records of paleoclimates found in the sediments of Lake Baikal. Nucl. Instrum. and Meth. in Phys. Res. A; 2000; 448(1-2): 384-393

Granina,L.Z., Grachev,M.A., Karabanov,E.B., Kuptsov,V.M., Shimaraeva,M.K., Williams,D.F., (1993) Accumulation of biogenic silica in bottom sediments of Baikal. Russ.J.Geol.Geophys.34,126-135

Granina L., Werhli B..(1999) The sediment-water interface in Lake Baikal. Baikal Symposium and 1st Baikal-Sed Workshop: Abstracts; Nov. 18-22, 1999; Berlin / Potsdam; 1999: 21-22.

Karabanov E., Bezrukova E.V., Granina L., Inouchi Y., Laso F., Letunova P., Mukhina V.,
Shimaraeva M., Stolbova E. (1992) Climatic sedimentation rhythms of Baikal sediments. International Project on Paleolimnology and Late Cenozoic Climate / IPPCCE Newsletter; 1992; 6: 21-30.

Karabanov E.B., Colman S.M., Nelson K.H. (1992) Pelagic sedimentary complexes and sedimentation conditions in Lake Baikal, Siberia. Eos Trans. AGU: Fall Meeting / Suppl.; 1992; 73(43)

Peck, J.A., King, J.W., Colman,S.M., Kravchinsky,V. (1994) A rock magnetic record from Lake Baikal, Siberia: evidence for Quaternary climate change. Earth Planet.Sci.Lett.122, 221-238.

Piotrowska, N., Bluszcz,A., Demske,D., Granoszewski,W., Heumann,G (2004) Extraction and AMS radiocarbon dating of pollen from Lake Baikal sediments. Radiocarbon. vol. 46 (1), no 1 (17 ref.), pp. 181-187

Popovskaya,G.I., (2000) .Ecological monitoring of phytoplankton in Lake Baikal. Aquat.Ecosyst.HealthManag.3, 215-225.

For Both Chilean and Baikal data:

Boës, Xavier (2005). High resolution sedimentological studies of lacustrine series, search for annual climatic proxies and interhemispheric comparison (examples of Lake Baikal, Siberia, 50 °N and Lake District, Chile, 40°S.) Ph.D dissertation. http://www.icdp-online.org/contenido...S_PhD_2005.pdf

For Puyehue

Arnaud F., Magand O., Chapron E., Bertrand S., Boës X., and Mélières M.A., (2006) .Radionuclide dating (210Pb, 137Cs, 241Am) of recent lake sediments in a highly active geodynamic setting (Lakes Puyehue and Icalma-Chilean Lake District). Science of the Total Environment Volume 366, Issues 2-3 , 1 August 2006, Pages 837-850 http://www.limnogeology.ethz.ch/Arnaud2006.pdf

"radionuclides can be used to provide approximate dates for sediment. Independent confirmation of these dates can be provided by varve counting and/or the recognition of historical events. For Lake Puyehue, this approach has allowed particular sediment features to be related to the effects of the 1960 Chilean earthquake (Mw 9.5) on the lake basin and its catchment area. For Lake Icalma, there is a good agreement between radionuclide dates and the dates of the three tephra layers formed during large eruptions of the Llaima volcano in 1946, 1917 and 1883. For both lakes, artificial radionuclide fallout, which culminated in 1965, provides more robust chronological information than 210Pb dating."

The sediments present several intercalated beds, i.e. tephra layers related to volcanic events and/or homogeneous layers related to major seismic events (Fig. 4). The regional volcanic activity recorded in Lago Puyehue sediments is mainly related to Osorno (41°S) and Cordon Caulle/Puyehue (40°S) volcanoes (Bertrand et al. this issue). The seismic layers recorded in Lago Puyehue sediments are related to the strong tectonic activity reported between 39-41°S .

Bertrand S., Charlet F., Charlier B., Renson V., Fagel N., (2008). Climate variability of southern Chile since the Last Glacial Maximum : a continuous sedimentological record from Lago Puyehue, 40°S. J. of Paleolimn. Volume 39, Number 2 / February, 2008

Bertrand S.,( 2005). Sédimentation lacustre postérieure au dernier maximum glaciaire dans les lacs Icalma et Puyehue (Chili méridional) : reconstitution de la variabilité climatique et des
événements sismo-tectoniques. Thèse, Université de Liège, 266 pp.

Bertrand S., Boës X., Castiaux J., Charlet F., Urrutia R., Espinoza C., Charlier B., Lepoint G. and
Fagel N., (2005). Temporal evolution of sediment supply in Puyehue Lake (Southern Chile) during
the last 600 years: climatic significance. Quat. Res. 64, 163-175

Campos H., Steffen W., Agüero G., Parra O., and Zuniga L., (1989) . Estudios Limnologicos en el lago Puyehue (Chile): Morfometria, factores fisicos y quimicos, plankton y productividad primaria. Medio Ambiente. 10: 36-53

Pezoa Gutiérrez L.S., (2003). Recopilacion y analisis de la variation de las temperatures (periodo 1965-2001) y las precipitaciones (periodo 1931-2001) a partir de la informacion de estaciones meteorologicas de Chile entre los 33°y 53° de latitude Sur. Universidad Austral de Chile, Thesis, 99 pp.

Soto D., (2002). Patrones oligotróficos en lagos del sur de Chile: relevancia de los nutrientes y de la profundidad de mezcla. Revista Chilena de Historia Natural. 75: 377-393.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other relevant studies:

Boës, Xavier and Nathalie Fagel.(2005) Impregnation method for detecting annual laminations in sediment cores: An overview. Sedimentary Geology, Volume 179, Issues 3-4, 15 August 2005, Pages 185-194

Brauer, A. and J. F. W. Negendank.(2002) The value of annually laminated lake sediments in Palaeoenvironment reconstruction. Quaternary International, Volume 88, Issue 1, February 2002, Pages 1-3

Brauer A., (2004). Annually laminated lake sediments and their palaeoclimatic relevance. In: Fischer H., Kumke T., Lohmann G., Flöser G., Miller H., von Storch H., and Negendank J.F.W. (Eds.) The Climate in Historical Times. Towards a Synthesis of Holocene Proxy Data and Climate Models. Springer, pp. 109-128.

Brauer, A. and J. F. W. Negendank (2004) The European Lake Drilling Programme (ELDP) from 1996-2001: high-resolution lake sediment records in climate and environment variability studies. Quaternary International, Volume 122, Issue 1, 2004, Pages 1-5

Card V., (1997) . Varve-counting by the annual pattern of diatoms accumulated in the sediments of Big Watab Lake, Minnesota, AD 1837-1990. Boreas 26, 103-112.

Dean, Walter E., Anderson, Roger Y., Bradbury, J. Platt, and David M. Anderson, (2002) . A 1500-year record of climatic and environmental change in Elk Lake, Minnesota I: Varve thickness and gray-scale density. Journal of Paleolimnology, 27:287-299.

Desloges, Joseph R.(1994) Varve Deposition and the Sediment Yield Record at Three Small Lakes of the Southern Canadian Cordillera. Arctic and Alpine Research, Vol. 26, No. 2 (May, 1994), pp. 130-140

Dickman, Michael (1985) Seasonal succession and microlamina formation in a meromictic lake displaying varved sediments. Sedimentology 32 (1), 109-118.

Hammer, Theodore U. (1994) Life and Times of Five Saskatchewan Saline Meromictic Lakes. Internationale Revue der gesamten Hydrobiologie und Hydrographie 79:2, 235

Ising, Jonas.(2001) Late Weichselian pollen stratigraphy, clay varve chronology and palaeomagnetic secular variations in Lake Bolmen, Småland, south Sweden Boreas: An International Journal of Quaternary Research , Volume 30, Issue 3, 2001, Pages 189 - 204

Kemp A.E.S., Dean J., Pearce R.B., and Pike J., (2001). Recognition and analysis of bedding and sediment fabric features. In: Last W.M., Smol J.P. (Eds.), Tracking Environmental Change
Using Lake sediments. Physical and geochemical Methods. Kluwer Academic Publishers,
Dordrecht, the Nederlands. Vol. 2, pp. 7-22

Lotter; André F. and Gerry Lemcke (1999) Methods for preparing and counting biochemical varves. Boreas Volume28, Issue 2, June 1999, pages 243 - 252

Lotter, AF; Sturm, M; Teranes, JL; Wehrli, B (1997) Varve formation since 1885 and high-resolution varve analyses in hypertrophic Baldeggersee (Switzerland). Aquatic Sciences. Vol. 59, no. 4, pp. 304-325. 1997. http://library.eawag.ch/EAWAG-Public...awag_02384.pdf

Ojala, Antti E. K. and Mia Tiljander.(2003) Testing the fidelity of sediment chronology: comparison of varve and paleomagnetic results from Holocene lake sediments from central Finland. Quaternary Science Reviews, Volume 22, Issues 15-17, July-August 2003, Pages 1787-1803

Tiljander M; Ojala A.; Saarinen T.; Snowball I. (2002) Documentation of the physical properties of annually laminated (varved) sediments at a sub-annual to decadal resolution for environmental interpretation. Quaternary International , Volume 88, Number 1, February 2002, pp. 5-12(8)

Vos, H. ; Sanchez, A.; Zolitschka, B.; et al. (1997). Solar Activity Variations Recorded in Varved Sediments from the Crater Lake of Holzmaar a Maar Lake in the Westeifel Volcanic Field, Germany . Surveys in Geophysics, vol. 18, Issue 2, p.163-182

Zolitchka B., (1996). High resolution lacustrine sediments and their potential for palaeoclimatic reconstruction. In : Jones P.D., Bradley R.S. and Jouzel J. (Eds), Climatic variations and forcing mechanisms of the last 2000 years. NATO ASI series. 141, pp. 453-478.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Varves correlate with multiple independent curves from multiple disciplines...Paleomagnetic. Corals. Speleothems --
Volcanic tephra IN the varves.
Atmospheric variations IN the varves
Climatic data ranging from El Nino oscillations to Milankovitch cycles and ice ages IN the varves.
Fossils IN the varves.
Radiometric dates FROM the varves.
Paleomagnetic materials IN the varves.
Radiocarbon IN the varves.
Earthquake signatures IN the varves.

On a more personal note, AFDave Hawkins...you should be very, very glad you never decided to take me up on the accepted invitations and challenges you issued (To go to the Grand Canyon to collect samples, Collecting coal samples in the American Southwest). Given your pathological lying and smarmy, simpering personality, you wouldn't have gone home quite the same.

In the meantime -- I hope the kids you lie to...including your own... grow up to literally kick the crap out of you.

Interesting. Especially Lake Baikal as it appears that you have found an example of a lake with a sedimentation rate very close to that claimed for Suigetsu.

The most obvious next questions would be ...

What do the sediment layers look like? What is their composition? Is it alternating light and dark? Are there diatoms? In short ... how closely does the Baikal sediments parallel the Suigetsu sediments?

No, davey, the most obvious next question is how can you be such a dumb fuck. How can you continue to look at your face in the mirror, after constantly denying reality, and reassure yourself "it's OK, I must be right".

What an ignorant egotistical flimflammery buffoon.

[JonF]

WRONG!
The annual nature of the varves is universally accepted by the scientific community and, more particularly, the researchers who actually study this stuff.

My dear Voxrat. Look what you just wrote. You wrote the equivalent of "The annual nature of annual layers is universally accepted ..." Profoundly profound. Not to mention redundantly redundant.

A varve is by definition a layer that is known to be annual. If it's not a varve (annual), it's called a rhythmite.

So what you and I disagree about is merely whether a single couplet at Suigetsu represents one year of deposition.

I say no.

You say yes.

I have studies to support my view.

You don't yet.

And here we have the last resort of the desperate creotard, buried under a mountain of evidence contradicting his claims with more evidence piling on at an exponential rate ...

"There is no evidence! This mountain doesn't exist! LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

Cue the Black Knight ...

[Pappy Jack]

And here we have the last resort of the desperate creotard, buried under a mountain of evidence contradicting his claims with more evidence piling on at an exponential rate ...

"There is no evidence! This mountain doesn't exist! LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

Cue the Black Knight ...

And I do believe The Life of Brian is on UK Film4 tonight: 'He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!'

[Occam's Aftershave]

Until you address my posts, Dave. You know the ones I mean.

The ones that ask whether or not you still hold that radiocarbon dating is broadly accurate for material younger than 3500 YBP, and, if so, why that doesn't mean that the Suigetsu layers are varves (i.e. annual layers), and if so, why the linear correlation of radiocarbon age with depth and varve count continues right through layers alleged by you to be laid in a single year during the Flood.

Your failure to even acknowledge my posts on this matter leads me to suspect that you realise that they present a major problem for your view.

Just sayin'

Lizzie

Dave, Febble has bent over backwards to remain polite and civil to you this entire thread, but you still won't address her observations about the first 3500 layers aligning with your own C14 graph timeline.

Your silence is very telling, and says as much about your lack of morals and ethics as it does about the worthlessness of your claims.

COWARD.

[JOZeldenrust]

Until you address my posts, Dave. You know the ones I mean.

The ones that ask whether or not you still hold that radiocarbon dating is broadly accurate for material younger than 3500 YBP, and, if so, why that doesn't mean that the Suigetsu layers are varves (i.e. annual layers), and if so, why the linear correlation of radiocarbon age with depth and varve count continues right through layers alleged by you to be laid in a single year during the Flood.

Your failure to even acknowledge my posts on this matter leads me to suspect that you realise that they present a major problem for your view.

Just sayin'

Lizzie

Dave, Febble has bent over backwards to remain polite and civil to you this entire thread, but you still won't address her observations about the first 3500 layers aligning with your own C14 graph timeline.

Your silence is very telling, and says as much about your lack of morals and ethics as it does about the worthlessness of your claims.

COWARD.

Adres the real issues Dave, and quit being such a wanker. You have agreed that radiocarbon dating is accurate up to 3500 years ago. How do you explain that macrofossils from the 3500th varve from the top have a radiocarbon ago of about 3500 years, and macrofossils from the 1500th varve from the top have a radiocarbon age of about 1500 years if the varves aren't annual?

Quit evading, you're pissing off Jesus.

[insect dreams]

Dear Insect Dreams ... I think your humor detector is not quite as evolved as you think! You presume I missed Sir Mung's and in so doing missed mine!

Bullshit translator service: "I meant to say that."

Yep. Followed by the comment equivalent of picking his nose and yanking his trousers out of his ass-crack.

[RAFH]

WRONG!
The annual nature of the varves is universally accepted by the scientific community and, more particularly, the researchers who actually study this stuff.

My dear Voxrat. Look what you just wrote. You wrote the equivalent of "The annual nature of annual layers is universally accepted ..." Profoundly profound. Not to mention redundantly redundant.

A varve is by definition a layer that is known to be annual. If it's not a varve (annual), it's called a rhythmite.

So what you and I disagree about is merely whether a single couplet at Suigetsu represents one year of deposition.

I say no.

You say yes.

I have studies to support my view.

You don't yet.

And here we have the last resort of the desperate creotard, buried under a mountain of evidence contradicting his claims with more evidence piling on at an exponential rate ...

"There is no evidence! This mountain doesn't exist! LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

Cue the Black Knight ...

I'll bite your legs off!

[RAFH]

Never fear, dear friends, davey will certainly come back with some other bizarre little detail to quibble endlessly about.

At least I hope so, just the huge amount of entertainment such will provide as well as the example it sets for the lurkers.

If not, if davey finds this too much to bear and runs off to another thread or even another forum, that will be almost as amusing and equally informative to the lurkers.

About the only honorable and honest course open to davey is to simply admit he's been a shoddy wanker and a buffoon, so desperately obsessed with his silly interpretation of a myth he's been unable to sort reality from the imaginary, but now he's had an awakening and he's going to renounce his past and do his best to educate children honestly.

Yeah, right. davey doing that? Not a chance.

Too much work and nobody paying him any attention for simply being STOOPID.

[ninewands]

The most obvious next questions would be ...

Hell, Dave, I can make GUESSES about the answers to your questions without reading ANY of those papers and have a better than 50% chance of being right ...

Shall we try?

What do the sediment layers look like?

Fairly soft thinly laminated clay-like material.

What is their composition?

Mostly silt and clay.

Is it alternating light and dark?

Probably.

Are there diatoms?

Dave, I challenge you to find an non-chlorinated outdoor body of water ("non-chlorinated" to exclude swimming pools and "lakes" at amusement parks) on the planet that does NOT have diatoms in it!

In short ... how closely does the Baikal sediments parallel the Suigetsu sediments?

I expect very closely ... except that the Baikal sediments may be an even more extreme case than Suigetsu given the size of the lake (636 km long x 80 km wide x 1.6 km deep).

ETA: Now my turn ...

WHY DO THE DATA ALL AGREE, DAVE?

[Mike PSS]

Dave, you STILL have not included the 3,500 years of 14C dates for the top level varves. You agree that 14C concentration has been constant for 3,500 years and that for artifacts of this age radiocarbon dating is accurate (within a small error bar). And yet you ignore the fact that the top layer of the SG cores have been 14C tested and found to be less than 3,500 years. How thick was that core? Let's check.
Attachment 471

Kitagawa puts the top dozen 14C samples between 111.7cm (525ybp 14C date) and 515.4 (3420ybp 14C date).
That means since the 14C dates are accurate in this timeframe then the, (ummm.... 515.4 minus 111.7 ... carry the two ...) 403.7cm of this core represent, (ummmm... 3420 minus 525 ... carry the three ...) 2,895 years of deposition.
That means each layer of the top of the core has, (ummmmm... 403.7cm divided by 2895 years ... carry the five) 1.394mm per varve.

So even using YOUR assumptions of the world around us we get 1.394mm per varve from Lake Suigetsu.

And Dave, it really doesn't matter where you put your supposed rock solid 14C measurement baseline. You can assert that the 14C is only valid for 2,500 years in the past and the math will come out the same.
I leave it to the reader to do this exercise independently. Just use the table provided.

Remember Dave, all the scientists did was take a core, measure the depth that they took the sample from, test that sample for 14C content and print the results. You know how to back calculate 14C measurements (in pMC) from the published dates so you know that the published date in the paper attached is nothing more than a 14C measurement put through a calibration curve. So the attached table is nothing more than hard data. Data that you so far have ignored, willfully.

Care to comment Dave? Or is this too much math for you right now?

This bears repeating and reemphasizing.

Dave, care to comment?

[ck1]

Until you address my posts, Dave. You know the ones I mean.

The ones that ask whether or not you still hold that radiocarbon dating is broadly accurate for material younger than 3500 YBP, and, if so, why that doesn't mean that the Suigetsu layers are varves (i.e. annual layers), and if so, why the linear correlation of radiocarbon age with depth and varve count continues right through layers alleged by you to be laid in a single year during the Flood.

Your failure to even acknowledge my posts on this matter leads me to suspect that you realise that they present a major problem for your view.

Just sayin'

Lizzie

Dave, Really.

Febble has been quite fair with you and unfailingly polite.

Why can't you address her concerns already?

She is clearly not going away, so avoidance will not work.

You are obviously busy on Sundays, but how about giving this top priority on Monday morning?

Thanks,

[JonF]

Flower R.J., Battarbee R.W., Lees J., Levina O.V., Jewson D., Mackay A.W., Ryves D.V., Sturm M., Vologina E.G. (1998) A GEOPASS-NERC project on diatom deposition and sediment accumulation in Lake Baikal, Siberia. Freshwater Biol. Assoc.; 1998; 11: 16-29.

Flower R.J., Ryves D.M., Mackay A.W., Battarbee R.W., Sturm M. (1997) Diatom deposition and sediment laminations in Lake Baikal, Siberia. Wuerzburger Geographische Manuskripte: Abstract Volume; 1997; 41.

Battarbee R., Mackay (1999) A. Biogenic composition of recent sediments: diatoms. Baikal Symposium and 1st Baikal-Sed Workshop: Abstracts; Nov. 18-22, 1999; Berlin / Potsdam; 1999: 25-27.

Are there diatoms?

We know you're slow, Davie-diddles, but this is feeble-minded even by your standards. I've placed some subtle clues in the quote from Dead's post. Can you find them?

How are you doing answering your other questions? Are you getting the papers Dead listed? Or are you sitting on your fat and lazy ass waiting for others to do your work for you?

[Dave Hawkins]

Febble-- I don't really know what I think about Carbon 14 at the moment. There was a time when I was leaning toward trusting it over the past 3500 years, but I'm not sure I trust it at all. There are too many unanswered questions at the moment.

CK1 ... you're a rare brave soul to give me a positive rep and say that I might have a point. Could I ask what you think I might have a point about?

[Febble]

Febble-- I don't really know what I think about Carbon 14 at the moment. There was a time when I was leaning toward trusting it over the past 3500 years, but I'm not sure I trust it at all. There are too many unanswered questions at the moment.

Right. That wasn't so hard, was it?

Now, have a look at my post here:

Let me see if I've got this straight. The evidence that varves represent annual layers includes:

• We observe varves forming today
• The diatoms in the layers reflect annual seasons
• Linear correlations are observed between varve count and radiocarbon
• Linear correlations are observed between radiocarbon date and depth
• The predicted date from these regressions corresponds closely with varve count
• The radiocarbon dates are independently calibrated with evidence from other fields such as archaeology

For these reasons, we can infer that radiocarbon dating is broadly accurate, by which we mean that

• Radiocarbon dates have a linear relationship with actual date
• Radiocarbon time intervals are of the same order of magnitude as real time intervals.

We also observe that varves go on for tens of thousands of years:

• The correlation between varves and radiocarbon continues to the limits of radiocarbon dating, which is around 50,000 YBP
• The varves go on in lockstep for at least twice as long as that.

Therefore varves have been forming for at least 100,000 years.
Therefore YEC is wrong.


So, in order to retrieve the claim that YEC is correct, YEC proponents need to argue that:

• Radiocarbon dates are not linear with real time.
  
• Demonstrate that apparent linearity with real time is an artefact of an some factor by which nonlinearities in layer formation in apparently completely independent processes (e.g. corals; tree rings; ice cores; varves) mimic the nonlinearities the C14 inventory over time, and also, coincidentally, happen to give spuriously matching dates for historically recorded events, such as volcanic eruptions and earthquakes.

However, this still leaves them with a major headache over the varves, because even if the varves were NOT annual, and even if radiocarbon dates were NOT collinear with real time, and even if the correspondence between archaeological and radiocarbon dating were completely coincidental and spurious:

• If a substantial proportion of the varves were deposited during the Flood, there should be NO correlation between depth and radiocarbon date for that segment, and no such segment has been found....
  
• Unless the Flood was more than 50,000 radiocarbon years ago, in which case radiocarbon dates for other materials are out by an average factor of at least 10.

And it still woulldn't explain why there should be ICE below that level.

Dave - it seems to me that's the size of the problem you have to tackle.

I'd like to suggest that the construction of an Old Earth theology might be an easier task, especially as there are several already to hand, many of them Christian.

Cheers,

Lizzie

And you'll see the problem I think you are facing. Sure, you can decide you are going to mistrust the radiocarbon dates. That's fine. But, as Mike says, from those inferred dates, you can infer the values that were recorded by the lab, and they will still lie very close to that diagonal line.

Now, at some point, you need that row of datapoints to take a vertical diversion upwards, in order to account for the layers laid in a single year (and which should all have the same radiocarbon VALUE, regardless of what DATE you think it means.

And. They. Don't.

So, if you want to claim that any of the sediment dateable to less than 50,000 YBP by radiocarbon was actually laid during the Flood 5,000 years ago, then you will either have to postulate that the Flood left virtually no sediment, or all the Flood sediment was laid more than 50,000 YBP by conventional dating.

In other words, you will have to postulate that conventional radiocarbon dating is out by a factor of at least 10 on average. And, as I say above, even if you can justify this, you still have to explain why there should be ICE lower than this.

Please comment on this, as it seems to me your view is in Deep Deep Trouble.

Cheers

Lizzie

[Gagundathar Inexplicable]

Febble-- I don't really know what I think about Carbon 14 at the moment. There was a time when I was leaning toward trusting it over the past 3500 years, but I'm not sure I trust it at all. There are too many unanswered questions at the moment.

CK1 ... you're a rare brave soul to give me a positive rep and say that I might have a point. Could I ask what you think I might have a point about?

Hawkins, you are NOT confused about C-14. You are deliberately ignoring the results of tests using radiocarbon dating because they completely annihilate your religious belief structure.
Therefore, in order to avoid reconsidering your entire world view, you choose to pretend that there is something to be confused about.

This is why people categorize you as a coward.

And when you say that the questions are unanswered, then you are LYING.
The questions HAVE been answered. You are unwilling to accept the validity of the answers.

This is why people categorize you as a liar.

If you have any other questions, then please feel free to ask them.
Someone will undoubtedly reply quickly and succinctly.
Guess why, Hawkins?

No, seriously, I would like to know why you think people are willing to spend so much time countering your ignorance, prevarication, cowardice, and general assholery with logic, reason and righteous anger.

Think, Hawkins! It sure as shit isn't because of your sparkling wit and scintillating ability to out-reason professional scientists.

What do you imagine is the real reason why people like CK1, or Gary or Eric or RAFH or any of the other bright folks here would even deign to acknowledge your existence much less attempt to engage you in reasoned discourse?

The question deserves an answer.
It may need to split off from this epic thread, but I DARE you to reply.

[damitall]

Originally Posted by dave hawkins
While the Carbon 14 graph is very tentative, it is important to note that at least two points on the graph have been experimentally verified -- 1) the modern C14 ratio and 2) the approximate pre-Flood C14 ratio.

Just in case anyone forgets...2) above is what is usually known as a lie. There is no such experimental "verification" , merely unsupported assertion

This is Hawkins we're dealing with - he's not changed.

[Faid]

Sorry If I bring this up again, but I missed it, and I just had to say....

I may have missed an earlier refernce to this, in which case apologies for mentioning it again, but there is available online at http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache...ng_en&ie=UTF-8 an academic dissertation by Mia Tiljander, University of Helsinki, on the Holocene history of annual laminations of Lake Korttajärvi, central Finland, which provides to my mind indisputable evidence that varve formation is a seasonally-driven annual process. The entire paper is well worth reading in its own right, but an extract from the abstract may serve:

The varve year begins when a light mineral lamina deposits in the spring. The mineral lamina becomes gradually mixed with organic matter in summer and autumn. At the end of the varve year (winter) black organic matter deposits under the ice cover. Variations in the basic varve structure exist. The varved sediment sequence covers almost the whole Holocene. The first varves were deposited 9590 years ago when the lake basin isolated from the Ancylus Lake of the Baltic basin. This first independent lake period lasted 430 years. After that, the lake became a part of the larger lake complex of Ancient Lake Päijänne for over 2700 years. The varve formation continued during the large lake period, although the varve structure was more complicated. Lake Korttajärvi became an independent lake basin for the second time 6400 years ago due to the formation of a new outlet and the lowering of the water level of the Ancient Lake Päijänne. The formation of annual lamina has continued to the present day.

My bolding.

The study convincingly ties the varve record of Lake Korttajärvi to a series of both recent and more time-distant climactic events and is convincing evidence supporting the work undertaken at Suigetsu.

You should pay attention to what I actually say, rather than what you imagine that I say. I have never disagreed that annual deposition occurs. It does occur. My disagreement is with the ultra-low sedimentation rate required to give Old Earthers their fancied 100,000 history of Lake Suigetsu.

WHAT?????????????

Dave says he NEVER disputed that annual deposition is happening today?