Lake Suigetsu: Flocculence Requires a Reevaluation

[Dave Hawkins]

Dear Insect Dreams ... I think your humor detector is not quite as evolved as you think! You presume I missed Sir Mung's and in so doing missed mine!

[Dave Hawkins]

Lake Suigetsu (and Lillooet, and Silhaelongwan, and Korttijärvi, and Baikal

What's with all these cosmic lake names all having 'varves'? Why couldn't they be something easy like Clear Lake or Moon Lake or Deep Lake?

[mung bean]

Dear Insect Dreams ... I think your humor detector is not quite as evolved as you think! You presume I missed Sir Mung's and in so doing missed mine!

Well in that case, me ol' struggling gerbil in a condom, I don't have to pity you quite so much.
FWIW though I suspect that you're trying to cover your arse. I think you hit that initial post of mine and quoted it as support for your position before reading the the subsequent posts. It is the sort of thing you'd normally do.

Btw, I've noticed that you still haven't made any attempt to deal with my questions. Why is that, Dave?

[mung bean]

Lake Suigetsu (and Lillooet, and Silhaelongwan, and Korttijärvi, and Baikal

What's with all these cosmic lake names all having 'varves'? Why couldn't they be something easy like Clear Lake or Moon Lake or Deep Lake?

Let me guess; you will soon claim that the non-English names of these lakes mean that any topic related to them "requires further study" and consequently you will be unable to address any questions relating to them until you have become thoroughly fluent in Japanese, Chinese, Finnish and Russian.

[Occam's Aftershave]

Lake Suigetsu (and Lillooet, and Silhaelongwan, and Korttijärvi, and Baikal

What's with all these cosmic lake names all having 'varves'? Why couldn't they be something easy like Clear Lake or Moon Lake or Deep Lake?

Dave, why is it you always have time for moronic one-liners, but you never have time to answer questions or provide references / details of your claims?

While the Carbon 14 graph is very tentative, it is important to note that at least two points on the graph have been experimentally verified -- 1) the modern C14 ratio and 2) the approximate pre-Flood C14 ratio.

When are you going to provide the reference to where this "pre-Flood" C14 ratio was experimentally verified?

When will you supply those papers you claim show a Flood in a single year laid down those thousands of identical layers in Suigetsu?

How did the Japanese islands and Lake Suigetsu itself form Dave?

[Mike PSS]

Take your time Dave. I know I gave you a lot of information in my last two posts this evening.

Oh, and the other posts on page 57 through 61 that you haven't addressed yet. Go ahead, I know this is a lot of information for you to assimilate.

[Ubercat]

Lake Suigetsu (and Lillooet, and Silhaelongwan, and Korttijärvi, and Baikal

What's with all these cosmic lake names all having 'varves'? Why couldn't they be something easy like Clear Lake or Moon Lake or Deep Lake?

What a waste of a post. You could have been telling us why all the curves agree. It's almost as if you're too cowardly to face the flaws in your worldview so you try to distract people with irrelevancies or something.

-Ubercat

[Occam's Aftershave]

Lake Suigetsu (and Lillooet, and Silhaelongwan, and Korttijärvi, and Baikal

What's with all these cosmic lake names all having 'varves'? Why couldn't they be something easy like Clear Lake or Moon Lake or Deep Lake?

Let me guess; you will soon claim that the non-English names of these lakes mean that any topic related to them "requires further study" and consequently you will be unable to address any questions relating to them until you have become thoroughly fluent in Japanese, Chinese, Finnish and Russian.

Do you think if we found a varve filled lake with a Portuguese name, he'd address the issues?

[Dave Hawkins]

Occam's Aftershave ...

Dave, why is it you always have time for moronic one-liners ... ?

My irony meter just broke!

[ninewands]

Lake Suigetsu (and Lillooet, and Silhaelongwan, and Korttijärvi, and Baikal

What's with all these cosmic lake names all having 'varves'? Why couldn't they be something easy like Clear Lake or Moon Lake or Deep Lake?

Well, hell, Dave, I don't know. Could it be that they are not in English-speaking countries? Ya' know, Suigetsu sounds vaguely Japanese to me ... Lillooet sounds sorta like it might be Chinook or one of them other Pacific Northwest Indian languages ... Silhaelongwan has sort of a Chinese sound to it, don't ya' think?, and that next one's gotta be Swedish or Nowegian ... nobody else spells things that strangely, not even the Finns! ... as for that last one ... Dave, PLEASE don't tell me you've never heard of the largest body of fresh water in the world! Surely you can't be THAT ignor ... <voice="Emily Latella">never mind</voice>.

[Occam's Aftershave]

Occam's Aftershave ...

Dave, why is it you always have time for moronic one-liners ... ?

My irony meter just broke!

QED

Thing is Dave, I post a lot of good science (remember those pics of the exhumed river meanders you screamed and ran from ) and have time left over to make fun of your lies and stupidity. All you do is shit your drawers and run away.

You still forgot to answer these question BTW:

When are you going to provide the reference to where this "pre-Flood" C14 ratio was experimentally verified?

When will you supply those papers you claim show a Flood in a single year laid down those thousands of identical layers in Suigetsu?

How did the Japanese islands and Lake Suigetsu itself form Dave?

[ninewands]

Occam's Aftershave ...

Dave, why is it you always have time for moronic one-liners ... ?

My irony meter just broke!

Yours broke ... HELL, the fact that you have one made mine EXPLODE!

[Occam's Aftershave]

Occam's Aftershave ...

Dave, why is it you always have time for moronic one-liners ... ?

My irony meter just broke!

Yours broke ... HELL, the fact that you have one made mine EXPLODE!

Given Dave's complete lack of technical skills, he probably had it pointed backwards.

[RAFH]

Lake Suigetsu (and Lillooet, and Silhaelongwan, and Korttijärvi, and Baikal

What's with all these cosmic lake names all having 'varves'? Why couldn't they be something easy like Clear Lake or Moon Lake or Deep Lake?

Yeah, that's a content full post. What a buffoon.

[RAFH]

Lake Suigetsu (and Lillooet, and Silhaelongwan, and Korttijärvi, and Baikal

What's with all these cosmic lake names all having 'varves'? Why couldn't they be something easy like Clear Lake or Moon Lake or Deep Lake?

What a waste of a post. You could have been telling us why all the curves agree. It's almost as if you're too cowardly to face the flaws in your worldview so you try to distract people with irrelevancies or something.

-Ubercat

Isn't this the norm for davey? Doesn't davey always pull stuff like this when the going gets hot?

[RAFH]

What's with all these cosmic lake names all having 'varves'? Why couldn't they be something easy like Clear Lake or Moon Lake or Deep Lake?

Let me guess; you will soon claim that the non-English names of these lakes mean that any topic related to them "requires further study" and consequently you will be unable to address any questions relating to them until you have become thoroughly fluent in Japanese, Chinese, Finnish and Russian.

Do you think if we found a varve filled lake with a Portuguese name, he'd address the issues?

In that case, the light colored layers would be French and the dark layers Spanish. Naturally.

[RAFH]

Occam's Aftershave ...

Dave, why is it you always have time for moronic one-liners ... ?

My irony meter just broke!

Why is that davey?

Nothing there is ironic? Just a normal statement about you.

I guess davey wanted to feel like he was with it and so he used a 'hip' phrase. Just another attempt to deflect the discussion. Wouldn't want to actually answer any of the hundreds of questions that follow him around. Like these:

http://www.rantsnraves.org/showthread.php?t=4661

[RAFH]

Occam's Aftershave ... My irony meter just broke!

Yours broke ... HELL, the fact that you have one made mine EXPLODE!

Given Dave's complete lack of technical skills, he probably had it pointed backwards.

Just being in davey's company must have been a tremendous strain on its circuits.

[teucer]

Dear Insect Dreams ... I think your humor detector is not quite as evolved as you think! You presume I missed Sir Mung's and in so doing missed mine!

Bullshit translator service: "I meant to say that."

[deadman_932]

Heh. I read through the thread and saw Davey's wailing cry that he couldn't find studies on "thin" laminae less than...eh, .5mm or whatever it was...thus demonstrating that Davey is as inept at LOOKING for data as he is at comprehending data given him. So...I remembered that I might have something to add here that I had saved. Plus I despise the shit-licking little liar (he ran away from the last discussion on this, too)

I kept the following references from our old discussion at IIDB or wherever it was at:

Lake Baikal sediments average about 0.04 to 0.17 mm accumulation per year
Lago Puyehue sediments average ~ 0.5 to 1 mm/yr

In particular, the Lake Puyehue (Chile) varves were studied from 1980-2000 and the varve thickness record is known from limnological readings. Additionally, the varves correlate with known climatological and geological events and radiometric dates. That gives a VERY strong basis for study -- and not "just" the radiometric dates that little Davey says he can't trust...though he's never demonstrated flaws in them.

Baikal sedimentation studies include the TECHNICAP sediment traps that were deployed in Lake Baikal. from 1996 by the GEOPASS-NERC project measuring deposition rates and organismal events. First results of sedimentation rate calculations show highest values on Posolskaya Banka (0.149 cmy-1), and lower values on Continent Ridge (0.057 cmy-1) and Vydrino Shoulder (0.052 cmy-1).

Lake Baikal sediments average about 0.04 to 0.17 mm accumulation per year See:

Boës, Xavier (2005). High resolution sedimentological studies of lacustrine series, search for annual climatic proxies and interhemispheric comparison (examples of Lake Baikal, Siberia, 50 °N and Lake District, Chile, 40°S.) Ph.D dissertation. http://www.icdp-online.org/contenido...S_PhD_2005.pdf (15 MB)

Sturm, M.; Vologina, E. G.; Baster, I.; Sinnet, B.; Mackay, A. W.; Ryves, D. (2003) Recent sedimentation in Lake Baikal. EGS - AGU - EUG Joint Assembly, Abstracts from the meeting held in Nice, France, 6 - 11 April 2003, abstract #2822

High-resolution TECHNICAP sediment traps have been deployed in Lake Baikal since 1996....First results of sedimentation rate calculations show highest values on Posolskaya Banka (0.149 cmy-1), and lower values on Continent Ridge (0.057 cmy-1) and Vydrino Shoulder (0.052 cmy-1). http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2003EAEJA.....2822S

Flower R.J., Battarbee R.W., Lees J., Levina O.V., Jewson D., Mackay A.W., Ryves D.V., Sturm M., Vologina E.G. (1998) A GEOPASS-NERC project on diatom deposition and sediment accumulation in Lake Baikal, Siberia. Freshwater Biol. Assoc.; 1998; 11: 16-29.

Flower R.J., Ryves D.M., Mackay A.W., Battarbee R.W., Sturm M. (1997) Diatom deposition and sediment laminations in Lake Baikal, Siberia. Wuerzburger Geographische Manuskripte: Abstract Volume; 1997; 41.

Sturm,M., V.Matta, M.Schurter, A.Zwyssig, E.Vologina, O.Levina, R.Gnatovsky, R.J.Flower, D.Ryves, J.Lees & D.Jewson (1997) Pattern of recent sedimentation in Lake Baikal. Results of high-resolution traps and short cores. Vol.abstract 7th Paleolimnology Conference August 1997, Heiligenkreuztal/Germany

Appleby P.G., Flower R.J., Mackay A.W., Rose N.L. (1998) Paleolimnological assessment of recent environmental change in Lake Baikal: sediment chronology. J. Paleolimnol.; 1998; 20: 119-133.

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More On Baikal:
Battarbee R., Mackay (1999) A. Biogenic composition of recent sediments: diatoms. Baikal Symposium and 1st Baikal-Sed Workshop: Abstracts; Nov. 18-22, 1999; Berlin / Potsdam; 1999: 25-27.

Bezrukova E.V. (1999) Biogenic composition of Lake Baikal recent sediments (pollen and spores of plants). Baikal Symposium and 1st Baikal-Sed Workshop: Abstracts; Nov. 18-22, 1999; Berlin / Potsdam; 1999: 24.

Bulnayev A.I. (1995) Neutron Activation Analysis Investigation of the Composition and Geochemical Peculiarities of Lake Baikal Bottom Sediments. Analyst; 1995; 120(5): 1445-1452.

Callender E., Deike R.G., Rossmann R. (1991) Geochemical and mineralogic indicators of sedimentation in Lake Baikal, South-Eastern Siberia, USSR. Eos Trans. AGU: Spring Meeting; 1991;72(17.V42C-12.1630h): 307.

Demory, F., Nowaczyk,N.R.,Witt, A., Oberhansli, H., (2005) .High-resolution magneto stratigraphy of late Quaternary sediments from Lake Baikal, Siberia: timing of intracontinental paleoclimatic responses.Glob.Planet.Change 46,167-186.

De Batist M. Recent and sub-recent sedimentation in Lake Baikal insights from seismic records.(1999) Baikal Symposium and 1st Baikal-Sed Workshop: Abstracts; Nov. 18-22, 1999; Berlin / Potsdam 1999: 28-29.

Francus P., Sturm M. Suspended particles and sediment formation..(1999) Baikal Symposium and 1st Baikal-Sed Workshop: Abstracts; Nov. 18-22, 1999; Berlin / Potsdam; 1999: 17-18.

Goldberg E.L., Phedorin M.A., Grachev M.A., Bobrov V.A., Dolbnya I.P., Khlystov O.M., Levina O.V., Ziborova G.A.(2000) Geochemical signals of orbital forcing in the records of paleoclimates found in the sediments of Lake Baikal. Nucl. Instrum. and Meth. in Phys. Res. A; 2000; 448(1-2): 384-393

Granina,L.Z., Grachev,M.A., Karabanov,E.B., Kuptsov,V.M., Shimaraeva,M.K., Williams,D.F., (1993) Accumulation of biogenic silica in bottom sediments of Baikal. Russ.J.Geol.Geophys.34,126-135

Granina L., Werhli B..(1999) The sediment-water interface in Lake Baikal. Baikal Symposium and 1st Baikal-Sed Workshop: Abstracts; Nov. 18-22, 1999; Berlin / Potsdam; 1999: 21-22.

Karabanov E., Bezrukova E.V., Granina L., Inouchi Y., Laso F., Letunova P., Mukhina V.,
Shimaraeva M., Stolbova E. (1992) Climatic sedimentation rhythms of Baikal sediments. International Project on Paleolimnology and Late Cenozoic Climate / IPPCCE Newsletter; 1992; 6: 21-30.

Karabanov E.B., Colman S.M., Nelson K.H. (1992) Pelagic sedimentary complexes and sedimentation conditions in Lake Baikal, Siberia. Eos Trans. AGU: Fall Meeting / Suppl.; 1992; 73(43)

Peck, J.A., King, J.W., Colman,S.M., Kravchinsky,V. (1994) A rock magnetic record from Lake Baikal, Siberia: evidence for Quaternary climate change. Earth Planet.Sci.Lett.122, 221-238.

Piotrowska, N., Bluszcz,A., Demske,D., Granoszewski,W., Heumann,G (2004) Extraction and AMS radiocarbon dating of pollen from Lake Baikal sediments. Radiocarbon. vol. 46 (1), no 1 (17 ref.), pp. 181-187

Popovskaya,G.I., (2000) .Ecological monitoring of phytoplankton in Lake Baikal. Aquat.Ecosyst.HealthManag.3, 215-225.

For Both Chilean and Baikal data:

Boës, Xavier (2005). High resolution sedimentological studies of lacustrine series, search for annual climatic proxies and interhemispheric comparison (examples of Lake Baikal, Siberia, 50 °N and Lake District, Chile, 40°S.) Ph.D dissertation. http://www.icdp-online.org/contenido...S_PhD_2005.pdf

For Puyehue

Arnaud F., Magand O., Chapron E., Bertrand S., Boës X., and Mélières M.A., (2006) .Radionuclide dating (210Pb, 137Cs, 241Am) of recent lake sediments in a highly active geodynamic setting (Lakes Puyehue and Icalma-Chilean Lake District). Science of the Total Environment Volume 366, Issues 2-3 , 1 August 2006, Pages 837-850 http://www.limnogeology.ethz.ch/Arnaud2006.pdf

"radionuclides can be used to provide approximate dates for sediment. Independent confirmation of these dates can be provided by varve counting and/or the recognition of historical events. For Lake Puyehue, this approach has allowed particular sediment features to be related to the effects of the 1960 Chilean earthquake (Mw 9.5) on the lake basin and its catchment area. For Lake Icalma, there is a good agreement between radionuclide dates and the dates of the three tephra layers formed during large eruptions of the Llaima volcano in 1946, 1917 and 1883. For both lakes, artificial radionuclide fallout, which culminated in 1965, provides more robust chronological information than 210Pb dating."

The sediments present several intercalated beds, i.e. tephra layers related to volcanic events and/or homogeneous layers related to major seismic events (Fig. 4). The regional volcanic activity recorded in Lago Puyehue sediments is mainly related to Osorno (41°S) and Cordon Caulle/Puyehue (40°S) volcanoes (Bertrand et al. this issue). The seismic layers recorded in Lago Puyehue sediments are related to the strong tectonic activity reported between 39-41°S .

Bertrand S., Charlet F., Charlier B., Renson V., Fagel N., (2008). Climate variability of southern Chile since the Last Glacial Maximum : a continuous sedimentological record from Lago Puyehue, 40°S. J. of Paleolimn. Volume 39, Number 2 / February, 2008

Bertrand S.,( 2005). Sédimentation lacustre postérieure au dernier maximum glaciaire dans les lacs Icalma et Puyehue (Chili méridional) : reconstitution de la variabilité climatique et des
événements sismo-tectoniques. Thèse, Université de Liège, 266 pp.

Bertrand S., Boës X., Castiaux J., Charlet F., Urrutia R., Espinoza C., Charlier B., Lepoint G. and
Fagel N., (2005). Temporal evolution of sediment supply in Puyehue Lake (Southern Chile) during
the last 600 years: climatic significance. Quat. Res. 64, 163-175

Campos H., Steffen W., Agüero G., Parra O., and Zuniga L., (1989) . Estudios Limnologicos en el lago Puyehue (Chile): Morfometria, factores fisicos y quimicos, plankton y productividad primaria. Medio Ambiente. 10: 36-53

Pezoa Gutiérrez L.S., (2003). Recopilacion y analisis de la variation de las temperatures (periodo 1965-2001) y las precipitaciones (periodo 1931-2001) a partir de la informacion de estaciones meteorologicas de Chile entre los 33°y 53° de latitude Sur. Universidad Austral de Chile, Thesis, 99 pp.

Soto D., (2002). Patrones oligotróficos en lagos del sur de Chile: relevancia de los nutrientes y de la profundidad de mezcla. Revista Chilena de Historia Natural. 75: 377-393.

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Other relevant studies:

Boës, Xavier and Nathalie Fagel.(2005) Impregnation method for detecting annual laminations in sediment cores: An overview. Sedimentary Geology, Volume 179, Issues 3-4, 15 August 2005, Pages 185-194

Brauer, A. and J. F. W. Negendank.(2002) The value of annually laminated lake sediments in Palaeoenvironment reconstruction. Quaternary International, Volume 88, Issue 1, February 2002, Pages 1-3

Brauer A., (2004). Annually laminated lake sediments and their palaeoclimatic relevance. In: Fischer H., Kumke T., Lohmann G., Flöser G., Miller H., von Storch H., and Negendank J.F.W. (Eds.) The Climate in Historical Times. Towards a Synthesis of Holocene Proxy Data and Climate Models. Springer, pp. 109-128.

Brauer, A. and J. F. W. Negendank (2004) The European Lake Drilling Programme (ELDP) from 1996-2001: high-resolution lake sediment records in climate and environment variability studies. Quaternary International, Volume 122, Issue 1, 2004, Pages 1-5

Card V., (1997) . Varve-counting by the annual pattern of diatoms accumulated in the sediments of Big Watab Lake, Minnesota, AD 1837-1990. Boreas 26, 103-112.

Dean, Walter E., Anderson, Roger Y., Bradbury, J. Platt, and David M. Anderson, (2002) . A 1500-year record of climatic and environmental change in Elk Lake, Minnesota I: Varve thickness and gray-scale density. Journal of Paleolimnology, 27:287-299.

Desloges, Joseph R.(1994) Varve Deposition and the Sediment Yield Record at Three Small Lakes of the Southern Canadian Cordillera. Arctic and Alpine Research, Vol. 26, No. 2 (May, 1994), pp. 130-140

Dickman, Michael (1985) Seasonal succession and microlamina formation in a meromictic lake displaying varved sediments. Sedimentology 32 (1), 109-118.

Hammer, Theodore U. (1994) Life and Times of Five Saskatchewan Saline Meromictic Lakes. Internationale Revue der gesamten Hydrobiologie und Hydrographie 79:2, 235

Ising, Jonas.(2001) Late Weichselian pollen stratigraphy, clay varve chronology and palaeomagnetic secular variations in Lake Bolmen, Småland, south Sweden Boreas: An International Journal of Quaternary Research , Volume 30, Issue 3, 2001, Pages 189 - 204

Kemp A.E.S., Dean J., Pearce R.B., and Pike J., (2001). Recognition and analysis of bedding and sediment fabric features. In: Last W.M., Smol J.P. (Eds.), Tracking Environmental Change
Using Lake sediments. Physical and geochemical Methods. Kluwer Academic Publishers,
Dordrecht, the Nederlands. Vol. 2, pp. 7-22

Lotter; André F. and Gerry Lemcke (1999) Methods for preparing and counting biochemical varves. Boreas Volume28, Issue 2, June 1999, pages 243 - 252

Lotter, AF; Sturm, M; Teranes, JL; Wehrli, B (1997) Varve formation since 1885 and high-resolution varve analyses in hypertrophic Baldeggersee (Switzerland). Aquatic Sciences. Vol. 59, no. 4, pp. 304-325. 1997. http://library.eawag.ch/EAWAG-Public...awag_02384.pdf

Ojala, Antti E. K. and Mia Tiljander.(2003) Testing the fidelity of sediment chronology: comparison of varve and paleomagnetic results from Holocene lake sediments from central Finland. Quaternary Science Reviews, Volume 22, Issues 15-17, July-August 2003, Pages 1787-1803

Tiljander M; Ojala A.; Saarinen T.; Snowball I. (2002) Documentation of the physical properties of annually laminated (varved) sediments at a sub-annual to decadal resolution for environmental interpretation. Quaternary International , Volume 88, Number 1, February 2002, pp. 5-12(8)

Vos, H. ; Sanchez, A.; Zolitschka, B.; et al. (1997). Solar Activity Variations Recorded in Varved Sediments from the Crater Lake of Holzmaar a Maar Lake in the Westeifel Volcanic Field, Germany . Surveys in Geophysics, vol. 18, Issue 2, p.163-182

Zolitchka B., (1996). High resolution lacustrine sediments and their potential for palaeoclimatic reconstruction. In : Jones P.D., Bradley R.S. and Jouzel J. (Eds), Climatic variations and forcing mechanisms of the last 2000 years. NATO ASI series. 141, pp. 453-478.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Varves correlate with multiple independent curves from multiple disciplines...Paleomagnetic. Corals. Speleothems --
Volcanic tephra IN the varves.
Atmospheric variations IN the varves
Climatic data ranging from El Nino oscillations to Milankovitch cycles and ice ages IN the varves.
Fossils IN the varves.
Radiometric dates FROM the varves.
Paleomagnetic materials IN the varves.
Radiocarbon IN the varves.
Earthquake signatures IN the varves.

On a more personal note, AFDave Hawkins...you should be very, very glad you never decided to take me up on the accepted invitations and challenges you issued (To go to the Grand Canyon to collect samples, Collecting coal samples in the American Southwest). Given your pathological lying and smarmy, simpering personality, you wouldn't have gone home quite the same.

In the meantime -- I hope the kids you lie to...including your own... grow up to literally kick the crap out of you.

[mung bean]

Hey Dead Dude, excellent first post. Davey will be ever so happy as he's been looking for papers exactly like these. Haven't you, Dave? Hmmmmmm?


ETA: Yes, I know I said I'd leave him alone but it's just impossible to pity him all that much (Davey that is, not the Dead One).

[deadman_932]

And howdy, Mungster ! -- I should add that I didn't post the list just for shock and awe value based on the huge amounts of recent research available on varves. I read through this thread and people had posted virtually all of the relevant Suigetsu material that we had gone over and more. So I thought I'd provide some more fodder that I had collected at the time.

There ARE long-term sedimentology and limnology studies being done on other meromictic or Oligomictic lacustrine sites, of course...it's relevant to a host of issues, not just geochronology-- acid rain, climatology, bio, etc.. I just don't feel like doing all the work for that cocksucker while he's simply looking for excuses to bail out. Cheers to everyone taking the time to stick a boot up his well-reamed ass.

[mung bean]

Well Dave, I said I'd do it and here it is:

I'm not interested in supposed confirmation by radiometric dating. Radiometric dating is full of arbitrary assumptions which cause it to be untrustworthy. I'm interested in multi year studies with real measuring devices like sediment traps which show that fine laminae on the order of 0.5 - 1mm are laid annually in lakes.

Davey boy, I have a hypothesis. This hypothesis (which is mine ) is testable and falsifiable. It is therefore scientific.

1/ My hypothesis states that you are only interested in such studies because you still think you can pretend they don't exist.

2/ My hypothesis further states that if it is conclusively demonstrated that they do exist you will promptly cease to be interested in such studies. What is more you will effect this shift in attitude without in any way honestly conceding that you're fucked.

3/ You will then handwave and waffle about the predictable fact that the sediment layers deposited in the sediment traps have a thickness greater than equivalent layers further down the column (which have been compressed due to the weight of sediment above them) and attempt to display this as evidence that the study is flawed.

I am going to keep this post on record for the moment you prove it true and then re-post it for your enjoyment.

Now Davey, since your old mate Dead Fucker has so graciously given you precisely what you were asking for, how do you intend to deal with it?

[RAFH]

Well, there goes davey's last point.

Good one deadman, I love it.

Not that davey had any significant issue, his contention was empty and irrelevant. He didn't establish there was a limited range of varve thickness, nor that Suigetsu was outside of that range.

Nor did he even attempt to address the usual problem YECers have with references, they are attempting to use a portion of a paper that was written by someone who doesn't agree with them. Which means they have two choices, either they accept the paper, the whole paper, or they reject the paper, the whole paper. In this case, as I repeatedly pointed out, the authors of the papers designate the varves as varves and they are the experts, not davey, not davey by a very, very long shot. And they are supported by the peer-reviewers as well as the scientific community at large. So, one side, there's davey, with no education, no training, no experience, just a hard on for a bizarre interpretation of an old myth, on the other hand, you have professional scientists with years of education, training and experience, whose work has been reviewed by professional reviewers and has been accepted by the professional scientific community. And yeah, this is a matter of opinion, that of a highly biased tyro vs that of professional scientists. Gee, who might know what is what.

Of course, this all completely ignores that all this bullshit has little or nothing to do with that there are 100,000 varves here, calibrated to radiocarbon, natural history and written history. Or the thousands of other varves that deny a 6000 year old universe, as well as his obsession with a silly myth about one family building and managing a boat with all the life on earth on board surviving an impossible storm that left no evidence, and then repopulated the world.

What a buffoon. What a fumduck buffoon.

[Pappy Jack]

Dave, you STILL have not included the 3,500 years of 14C dates for the top level varves. You agree that 14C concentration has been constant for 3,500 years and that for artifacts of this age radiocarbon dating is accurate (within a small error bar). And yet you ignore the fact that the top layer of the SG cores have been 14C tested and found to be less than 3,500 years
......
Remember Dave, all the scientists did was take a core, measure the depth that they took the sample from, test that sample for 14C content and print the results. You know how to back calculate 14C measurements (in pMC) from the published dates so you know that the published date in the paper attached is nothing more than a 14C measurement put through a calibration curve. So the attached table is nothing more than hard data. Data that you so far have ignored, willfully.

Care to comment Dave? Or is this too much math for you right now?

I have remarked on Dave's reluctance to address this question in the context of Febble's posts; I had forgotten that you had raised it also and my apologies for that.

While I think that Dave may be crazy (in the sense that his Creo Blinkers™ do not allow him to evaluate evidence on its own merits and independent of his pre-existing determination that it must conform with YEC dogma), unlike others here I do not think that he is entirely stupid. He has no intention of coming anywhere near this question if he can help it. Much better to 'focus' on the highly relevant question of 'assertions' about 'ultra low' sedimentation rates which Dave is convinced he has shown cannot happen. Not to mention the seasonal nature of diatom blooming, which I believe he is about to discredit shortly.