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th1nk3r
29 Nov 07, 02:47:30 AM
jamesbannon was killed.

2. ELV
3. Tom Sawyer
7. Imaginary Mark
14. mrickaby
15. Spenser
19. Tenuous
22. mefisto
23. enigma

Early lynch on 5 votes.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 02:50:57 AM
Tenuous viewed Imaginary Mark and got bad.

Night 1: Spenser = Bad
Night 2: Pavlov's Dog = Bad (confirmed good)
Night 3: Beren = Bad (confirmed bad)
Night 4: ELV = Bad
Night 5: Matt = Good (late view, confirmed bad)
Night 6: Tom Sawyer = Good
Night 7: Enigma = Good
Night 8: IM = Bad

OK, let's hear some theories. My current top of list is Spenser, will post more about the reasons after I've grabbed some breakfast.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 03:30:54 AM
First things first, and that was the silence on the 1st night. Spenser is supposed to be this great mafia player, so it seems odd to silence him on the 1st night when there is no worthwhile view or vote data for him to comment on. It makes more sense to silence someone innocuous who is unlikely to get involved later and need to be silenced. And of course, it makes even more sense to silence a mafia to help throw off suspicion.

Secondly (thinking chronologically), he's the mayor. Now, I'd think that the mafia would like to have the mayor powers, and yet he remains untouched for 8 days now. Mayor powers are particularly valuable in the late game, when it comes down to just a few votes.

And then we come onto some more substantial evidence, his campaign against the proven good Tears in the Rain. He got him lynched even with a much better target available (Matt), and he's number 1 in pushing that through.
FYI, Tears voters: Spenser/TS/mefisto/Matt/IM/enigma

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 03:35:06 AM
Also, he had an lynch vote on Trillian on Day 2. And also voted for Trillian on Day 3 when she was lynched.

Also, from reading through, it's clear that both Trillian and Tears suspected Spenser.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 03:38:37 AM
On Day 4, when it came down to a vote between 2 mafia (Beyelzu and Beren), he wasn't particularly interested and said,

"This game is going to be long enough as is. Just lynch who ever has the most votes. If its a tie my swing goes with my vote."
http://rantsnraves.org/showthread.php?p=113327#post113327

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 03:44:36 AM
Day 5, he was pushing to lynch Tears (known good) and finally joined the Beren vote when it was an inevitable result.

Also claimed to view Tears again, with a different result from the first view. Not exactly a shock in this game where the views have been next to useless and working out who is scum in the traditional mafia style has been more effective, but he claimed it was strong evidence against Tears. Quite frankly, there are 2 things wrong with this, a) it doesn't make a great deal of sense to view someone twice, b) it's certainly not as strong a piece of evidence as he made it out to be

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 03:48:42 AM
Day 6. Continued to push on Tears (known good), using Beren's (known bad) post here to support his case.
http://rantsnraves.org/showthread.php?p=116053#post116053

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 03:53:58 AM
Day 7. Starts off by defending Matt (known bad) and voting for Tears (known good).
http://rantsnraves.org/showthread.php?p=116785#post116785

Though later comes through to find a vote on Matt 'acceptable' but still keeps his vote and tie breaker on Tears.

Tears voters: Spenser/TS/mefisto/Matt/IM/enigma

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 04:07:20 AM
Day 8. Tried to get myself and jamesbannon (known good) to unvote on Matt (known bad) early on, although he did have a reason I don't see why he couldn't see that the evidence against Matt was pretty damn strong.

Anyway, having gone through all this I may not have convinced the other players but I've sure as hell convinced myself.

vote spenser

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 04:09:19 AM
Oh, and for anyone unconvinced, I suggest looking through for correlations between people who FOSed/voted for Spenser and got killed by mafia. I'm sure enough to vote on the above, but I reckon there's more evidence out there.

Tom Sawyer
29 Nov 07, 05:25:52 AM
Well, I viewed IM and got good, so that's the opposite of Tenuous.

I figure one of Spenser and Tenuous are bad. I've viewed both and got good for Spenser and bad for Tenuous. IIRC, three of my reads have been confirmed correct and two have been confirmed incorrect, so regardless of what type of seer I am, my views are as useless as everyone else's.

I was planning on coming into today and vote for Tenuous, but he's been acting much more townie lately and I'm beginning to trust him (if he's mafia and it's been a fakeout, then good work, Tenuous, it succeeded on at least one person). Also, Spenser is a very good player at this and the mafia were worried enough about him to silence him on the first day, but then with him as mayor and with no protection, he manages to live the entire game? It seems too fishy.

It may be a mistake, but Tenuous has dropped down on my scumdar and Spenser has shot up, so:

Vote Spenser

Tom Sawyer
29 Nov 07, 05:28:16 AM
Also, no one was silenced today, so it looks like Matt was the silencer. However, with about half of the survivors not posting anything for most of the game, that's not much of an issue.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 05:40:06 AM
Also, no one was silenced today, so it looks like Matt was the silencer. However, with about half of the survivors not posting anything for most of the game, that's not much of an issue.

He could also have been the killer, and the silencer took the killer role. But the end result's the same. Probably less likely to be this as a silence could probably be used to more effect than view related powers at this stage.

Look on the bright side, at least it's quicker to go back through all their posts looking for clues.

And for the post above, I've always tried to be as open as possible with my reasoning as should all good players. If all goods do this it forces the mafia to do the same to avoid suspicion, and thus provides an evidence trail against them.

mrickaby
29 Nov 07, 06:05:27 AM
Agreeing with Tenuous here.

vote: Spenser

IMark also seems suspicious to me at this point. I will try to outline it later, if I get a chance.

Marcus
29 Nov 07, 06:09:08 AM
I viewed Tom Sawyer last night and got Good.

My viewing history hear for what it is worth.

PD Good - Confirmed
ST Good - Confirmed
ELV Good
JamesBannon Good Confirmed
enigma Bad - My vote yesterday was an attempt to convey this.

Marcus
29 Nov 07, 06:17:56 AM
I viewed Tom Sawyer last night and got Good.

My viewing history hear for what it is worth.

PD Good - Confirmed
ST Good - Confirmed
ELV Good
JamesBannon Good Confirmed
Tears Bad Confirmed GOOD
enigma Bad - My vote yesterday was an attempt to convey this.

I left out the Tears view.

Marcus
29 Nov 07, 06:22:10 AM
Tenuous, I think that you are correct about Spenser, if he is not mafia, they would have NK'd him by now. I think the night 1 silence was a ruse that we bit on hard.

vote Spenser

Tom Sawyer
29 Nov 07, 07:41:25 AM
So, that's four for Spenser now. One more and we either lose the game or move on.

I'd suggest ELV for the next lynch. I've seen him spending a lot of time watching the thread, but not posting much. I'm not sure about the last one, though.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 07:54:25 AM
I think it's worth looking in detail at enigma too. (what detail there is).

My suspicion is that I was right about being paranoid and correctly spotted the force good on Matt. Then the next night I suspect the mafia did a 'force opposite' on me, so that whoever I viewed I'd get good again and ease the pressure on Matt. However that wouldn't be necessary the next night and it's possible there was a force opposite on enigma since he fell under suspicion then.

This would also fit in with mefisto being naive and viewing enigma the same night and getting bad. Given the orchestration of a lynch hit on Tears by the mafia, that could also explain mefisto getting a bad reading there the night before (either force bad or force opposite).

Of course, this is about as weak as it gets evidence wise, but it's a possibility. I also want to look into Tears suggestion that I might be an insane viewer, but I think I'd have been NKed earlier if I was.

Tom Sawyer
29 Nov 07, 08:06:40 AM
I don't know that we should give any value to the reads at all. With the ability to switch and the useless ones and the percentages out there, it really is little more than random data.

I voted for Tears over Matt a couple of days ago partly because I'd viewed Spenser as good and decided to trust him because of that - and look where that got us. Despite not wanting to take the views into account, it's really hard not to factor it into my decision-making because of the little information available. The fact that the validity of the information we get from the reads is suspect means that including it will only increase the possibility of bad decisions.

There really wasn't any kind of pattern that emerged from the views and we'd be best to ignore tham completely.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 08:11:50 AM
I agree that priority should go to old school mafia analysis, who voted for who, who defended mafia, or was supported by mafia etc. But with the quiet ones we're really down to the bare minimum of available data, so it's worth looking into everything. Try and figure out a pattern that matches the events.

ELV
29 Nov 07, 08:24:42 AM
There really wasn't any kind of pattern that emerged from the views and we'd be best to ignore tham completely.

Not necessarily. Since we've killed several mafia, they probably haven't been messing with the views so much lately. If anyone left alive is a useful seer, their latest views can probably be trusted. Of course, it would take a bit of work to tell who isn't useless, its too bad the players that kept up the summaries are all dead. If people are willing to be patient and not rush these last few days, we could update the viewing summaries and all try to analyze everyone left alive for anything we might find. In a game this close, any advantage we could get may be worth it.

Anyway, Tenuous convinced me about Spenser. I'll vote for him later before too long if we need it but I don't want to reach majority too quickly.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 08:37:15 AM
WTF? I'm being lynched cause I'm still alive? JB made perfect sense as last nights kill cause he had about zero suspicion on him and here we are today left with every one with some on them.

I find it a little odd that th1nk3r opens this thread at 1:47am my time and 3 minutes later Tenuous has posted and takes half a dozen posts of indicting me before finally voting for me. I call BS! You're pushing way too hard.

Vote: Tenuous

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 08:40:12 AM
I viewed ELV as bad BTW. There is too much smoke in all Ten's posts to even pretend like it all adds up.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 08:49:21 AM
WTF? I'm being lynched cause I'm still alive? JB made perfect sense as last nights kill cause he had about zero suspicion on him and here we are today left with every one with some on them.

I find it a little odd that th1nk3r opens this thread at 1:47am my time and 3 minutes later Tenuous has posted and takes half a dozen posts of indicting me before finally voting for me. I call BS! You're pushing way too hard.

Vote: Tenuous

Funnily enough that's cos I'm in the UK, after I got my PM from th1nk3r with the view result I was waiting for the thread to come up.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 08:50:26 AM
I viewed ELV as bad BTW. There is too much smoke in all Ten's posts to even pretend like it all adds up.

It's all there in the threads for everyone to see, no smoke necessary.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 08:58:04 AM
It may be a mistake, but Tenuous has dropped down on my scumdar and Spenser has shot up, so:

Which is exactly what he wants you to do with his barrage of information. The point you all seem to miss about the mafia kills and silences is that besides the first night, the rest of the nights they have better info from peoples viewings and their actions than we do and can spend their time trying to kill the accurate seers. I am obviously a crap seer so what is the point of killing me? And now at this point in the game, cause every one keeps saying I'm such a great player, merely being alive is enough to garner your votes and end the game for the mob.

Look at Tenuous's posts here, it looks like a republican hack job. You really going to fall for that?

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 09:03:56 AM
I viewed ELV as bad BTW. There is too much smoke in all Ten's posts to even pretend like it all adds up.

It's all there in the threads for everyone to see, no smoke necessary.

What is? Silencing me made perfect sense, it placed a FOS on me. My first gambit was either trill or bey was scum. Bey turned out to be scum. Beren was next.

Saying that both Tears and trill suspected me is some kind of evidence? And correlations between people that FOS me and got nabbed? Do you really think if I was mob I'd make it that fucking obvious? You're like a pit bull suddenly.

Tom Sawyer
29 Nov 07, 09:07:28 AM
Look at Tenuous's posts here, it looks like a republican hack job. You really going to fall for that?

It may be that it's a hack job and it may not. I'm about 50/50 on Tenuous being scum and about 50/50 on you being scum. He's acting more townie right now, so that dropped the scumdar on him down into about the 40-45% range. The fact that you're mayor and the mafia were worried enough about you to silence you on the first day and then ignored you since then raises your scumdar up to about 60%. That means you get my vote.

ELV
29 Nov 07, 09:12:20 AM
Either the mafia were trying to set you up to look like scum by silencing you night one or you are scum. Lynching you would be taking a chance, but I don't think we have anything better on anyone else, I think we're going to have to take the chance and lynch you unless you can come up with something really good.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 09:13:47 AM
Look at Tenuous's posts here, it looks like a republican hack job. You really going to fall for that?

It may be that it's a hack job and it may not. I'm about 50/50 on Tenuous being scum and about 50/50 on you being scum. He's acting more townie right now, so that dropped the scumdar on him down into about the 40-45% range. The fact that you're mayor and the mafia were worried enough about you to silence you on the first day and then ignored you since then raises your scumdar up to about 60%. That means you get my vote.

Did you not read what I just said? As of day two the mob had plenty of info to go after that accurate seers. Why would they go after me when they can just hang me out to dry while killing what are essentially the real specials?

Who was the first person to say that the views are essentially worthless to the town and we should play this like mafia? Me. I also tried to slow it down yesterday so we could get a grip on how quick these last few days are going to be and who comes out guns slinging to end it? Tenuous. Is his attack job and links to shit like "Tears suspected him (yeah and like 5 others)" really seem less scum and more town?

Dude, we no room for mistakes here and he's forcing the day. Check your fucking scumdar.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 09:14:53 AM
Either the mafia were trying to set you up to look like scum by silencing you night one or you are scum. Lynching you would be taking a chance, but I don't think we have anything better on anyone else, I think we're going to have to take the chance and lynch you unless you can come up with something really good.

Says one of the persons I suspect to be scum.

ELV
29 Nov 07, 09:15:35 AM
I suspect everyone is scum. You need something better than that Spenser.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 09:19:57 AM
It's pretty clear I'm not forcing anything. People can go read those threads and decide for themselves, but your actions speak louder than any obfuscation you post now.

I certainly didn't come out guns slinging to end anything, I was happy to wait around and see who was reluctant to vote for Matt. Watch the thread readers, see who wasn't voting for him when the evidence was out there.

Quite frankly the more you post all this stuff the more obvious it is you're mafia, you haven't addressed the meat of the points I made, rather concentrated on attacking me.

Tom Sawyer
29 Nov 07, 09:21:01 AM
Did you not read what I just said? As of day two the mob had plenty of info to go after that accurate seers. Why would they go after me when they can just hang me out to dry while killing what are essentially the real specials?

I haven't seen any patterns to suggest that they were doing that. If I had, that would have worked to clear you. Show them to me and I'd be willing to change my mind.

I just cannot see the mayor lasting until day 8 without protection unless he's mafia.



Dude, we no room for mistakes here and he's forcing the day. Check your fucking scumdar.

He's still on my scumdar. It's just that you and ELV are higher on it than he is.

ELV
29 Nov 07, 09:21:51 AM
Just a quick notice, either Spenser is scum or all mafia who have had a chance to vote today have already voted for him.

If I was mafia, and Spenser isn't, I could just vote spe... and end the game, anyone else who hasn't voted could do the same.

I would suggest someone perhaps unvote spenser for now unless you are absolutely certain you want him lynched, because if you are wrong about him and some mafia hasn't voted yet, they could end the game right now.

Because of that, I'm either willing to bet that Spenser is mafia so that they don't want to do that, or all three remaining scum have already voted for him so that they can't do that.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 09:22:05 AM
I suspect everyone is scum. You need something better than that Spenser.

And therein lies the problem. What exactly am I supposed to point to that magically removes the FOS that has been placed on me? I can't other than saying I have been trying to play this more as mafia and less as th1nk3rs stupid everyone's got a view but most are useless and the rest can be fucked with game.

This has been a hard enough game as it is with the mob having much more info than us and the evidence against me is that I lynched two innocents yet lynched all 3 mob??? :confused:

You guys are being led here. http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/images/smilies/sheep.gif

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 09:24:13 AM
I haven't seen any patterns to suggest that they were doing that.

Umm, any one left think they are a valuable seer? :doh:

ELV
29 Nov 07, 09:24:16 AM
Ok Spenser.

Which of the following is not the bad guy?

mefisto, Tenuous, Tom Sawyer, mrickaby.

Because if you're right, all the mafia have to be in there, or else this game would be over already.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 09:25:11 AM
or all three remaining scum have already voted for him so that they can't do that.

I get the sense that this is the case. I log on and I am already one vote from this game over. :Jacey:

ELV
29 Nov 07, 09:28:14 AM
Its a definite possibility, one of only two actually. The other is that they are all right about you.

Shit.

Unfortunately I have class soon so I won't be able to participate much longer, sorry Tom.

I think I will vote tenuous and leave the towns options open for now.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 09:29:41 AM
Ok Spenser.

Which of the following is not the bad guy?

mefisto, Tenuous, Tom Sawyer, mrickaby.

Because if you're right, all the mafia have to be in there, or else this game would be over already.

Initially I thought it wasn't Tenuous but to me he appears to be their choice for offense. My list yesterday included:

Matt, Tom Sawyer, Imaginary Mark and Enigma;

I then waffled with whether you would replace enigma on that list and I asked why mrickaby was so damn quiet. I can't tell you for sure but the least suspect on my list there is mefisto.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 09:31:36 AM
Its a definite possibility, one of only two actually. The other is that they are all right about you.

Shit.

Unfortunately I have class soon so I won't be able to participate much longer, sorry Tom.

I think I will vote tenuous and leave the towns options open for now.

Doing that leaves the mafia's options open, they can get to 4 votes with a townie vote and thus get the lynch using Spenser's mayor veto.

Better to just not vote until you're sure either way.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 09:35:48 AM
Its a definite possibility, one of only two actually. The other is that they are all right about you.

Shit.

Unfortunately I have class soon so I won't be able to participate much longer, sorry Tom.

I think I will vote tenuous and leave the towns options open for now.

Doing that leaves the mafia's options open, they can get to 4 votes with a townie vote and thus get the lynch using Spenser's mayor veto.

Better to just not vote until you're sure either way.


Its obvious where my tie vote will go! :glare:

ELV
29 Nov 07, 09:36:24 AM
unvote I'm leaning towards you being scum tenuous, but we don't need to get a lynch yet, you are right about that

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 09:39:48 AM
unvote I'm leaning towards you being scum tenuous, but we don't need to get a lynch yet, you are right about that

I agree its better to unvote if you are not sure. Funny how he doesn't do it himself. Why is he so sure? Him being so sure is the only only reason I'm now pretty sure he's scum.

Tom Sawyer
29 Nov 07, 09:41:25 AM
While the argument between Tenuous and Spenser could be an act, the mafia is in a strong enough position at the moment that I don't think that they'd need to go through all that trouble. So, I figure that one of the two is not mafia.

Right now, Spenser is slightly more suspicious to me than Tenuous.

If ELV is mafia and Spenser is not, then ELV could have won the game for them as soon as he logged on. ELV's high on my scumdar as well, so the fact that he didn't vote for Spenser is another strike against Spenser in my view

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 09:44:02 AM
Its a definite possibility, one of only two actually. The other is that they are all right about you.

Shit.

Unfortunately I have class soon so I won't be able to participate much longer, sorry Tom.

I think I will vote tenuous and leave the towns options open for now.

Doing that leaves the mafia's options open, they can get to 4 votes with a townie vote and thus get the lynch using Spenser's mayor veto.

Better to just not vote until you're sure either way.


Its obvious where my tie vote will go! :glare:

Yes it is obvious, but you've yet to give a good explanation other than that I've attacked you. Well I don't see how it's weird to think you're mafia given your record in this game and you've not addressed the main points in all the stuff I sifted through like leading the charge against Tears etc. So what makes you so sure I'm mafia? Have you looked through the threads / my voting record / etc etc? I don't think so, you're merely doing the standard scum tactic of attacking me to distract from the evidence against yourself.

If you were really a townie, you'd presumably at least look at the evidence against you and address it, and look to see if there was evidence against me before jumping in with a vote? Given your record it's hard to see how suspicion of you == definite mafia, by any standard of logic.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 09:46:31 AM
unvote I'm leaning towards you being scum tenuous, but we don't need to get a lynch yet, you are right about that

I agree its better to unvote if you are not sure. Funny how he doesn't do it himself. Why is he so sure? Him being so sure is the only only reason I'm now pretty sure he's scum.

There's a large body of text at the beginning of the thread that is the reason I'm so sure, plus you've since added plenty of extra confirmation with your reaction. Attacking me rather than addressing the evidence, voting for me without providing any evidence. It's not exactly hard to work out who's the scum here.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 09:50:58 AM
Just a quick notice, either Spenser is scum or all mafia who have had a chance to vote today have already voted for him.

If I was mafia, and Spenser isn't, I could just vote spe... and end the game, anyone else who hasn't voted could do the same.

I would suggest someone perhaps unvote spenser for now unless you are absolutely certain you want him lynched, because if you are wrong about him and some mafia hasn't voted yet, they could end the game right now.

Because of that, I'm either willing to bet that Spenser is mafia so that they don't want to do that, or all three remaining scum have already voted for him so that they can't do that.

Indeed, and while Spenser has been quick to accuse me, he hasn't provided much in the way of reasoning, or indeed any reasoning or evidence against these other voters, who as you say would have to be scum also or it'd be game over already.

Tom Sawyer
29 Nov 07, 09:57:42 AM
I haven't seen any patterns to suggest that they were doing that.

Umm, any one left think they are a valuable seer? :doh:

I have no clue. There's three mafia left and the silencer is gone, so there's still one or two in the game who can mess up views. That means that even valuable seers are not valuable seers because their views are no more reliable than useless seers.

There's no way to determine whether any of us have any value at all, so I can't answer that question.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 10:02:18 AM
What Evidence? That is my point. I thought both Tears and trill were suspect so I voted for them. Same goes with bey, beren and Matt. Yes I am still alive, need proof of that???

What else is specific (and hopefully confined to a single post) would you like me to address that I haven't and why can you not acknowledge I did more than just attack you? What do you expect when I log on to like a dozen post barrage against me with most fluff. Yes, all that stuff is there that you point out, that doesn't make any of it damning.

Look every body, Tenuous posted here, here, and here; lynch his ass. That is not the case I am bringing against you, and claiming there is no evidence against you is absurd. I am not scum and you are out to get me like I'm the drunk chick at a frat party. I think that is enough of a case for me to be convinced something is off here and you are scum. It seems an awful lot like you want the game over ASAP.


Indeed, and while Spenser has been quick to accuse me, he hasn't provided much in the way of reasoning, or indeed any reasoning or evidence against these other voters, who as you say would have to be scum also or it'd be game over already.

Dude, I can't be the only one who sees who obvious this is??? :confused:


You hatchet job on me is evidence enough. You are quick to point the finger away from that and I never said that the other voters were scum, just that I suspect that might be.

The only one here making definitive statements today is you and the only people who know for sure what is going on is the mob. That is my case against you now.




I haven't seen any patterns to suggest that they were doing that.

Umm, any one left think they are a valuable seer? :doh:

I have no clue. There's three mafia left and the silencer is gone, so there's still one or two in the game who can mess up views. That means that even valuable seers are not valuable seers because their views are no more reliable than useless seers.

There's no way to determine whether any of us have any value at all, so I can't answer that question.

But see, its very likely the mob do and used the patterns they saw, the knowledge they had (of who is town and who is not) coupled with their abilities to easily figure out who is the valuable seers and pick them off.

Seriously, think about that for a second, how else would they play? Does that really need more arguing?


While the argument between Tenuous and Spenser could be an act, the mafia is in a strong enough position at the moment that I don't think that they'd need to go through all that trouble. So, I figure that one of the two is not mafia.

Right now, Spenser is slightly more suspicious to me than Tenuous.

If ELV is mafia and Spenser is not, then ELV could have won the game for them as soon as he logged on. ELV's high on my scumdar as well, so the fact that he didn't vote for Spenser is another strike against Spenser in my view

I'm trying to figure out your math on this. If I was scum how could ELV have won the game? I thought his vote was on me and we need 5 to lynch.

Marcus
29 Nov 07, 10:06:45 AM
This got real confusing real quick. I am going to unvote while we get this sorted out.

Tom Sawyer
29 Nov 07, 10:08:24 AM
I'm trying to figure out your math on this. If I was scum how could ELV have won the game? I thought his vote was on me and we need 5 to lynch.

No, it was Tenuous, me, mrrickaby, mefisto.

When ELV logged on, he could have voted for you and won the game if he was mafia and you weren't.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 10:10:44 AM
While the argument between Tenuous and Spenser could be an act, the mafia is in a strong enough position at the moment that I don't think that they'd need to go through all that trouble. So, I figure that one of the two is not mafia.

Right now, Spenser is slightly more suspicious to me than Tenuous.

If ELV is mafia and Spenser is not, then ELV could have won the game for them as soon as he logged on. ELV's high on my scumdar as well, so the fact that he didn't vote for Spenser is another strike against Spenser in my view

I'm trying to figure out your math on this. If I was scum how could ELV have won the game? I thought his vote was on me and we need 5 to lynch.

You're the one with the bad maths.

Tenuous
Tom Sawyer
Mefisto
mrickaby

were all voting for you at the time. That meant that ELV could have made it 5 if he was mafia and you weren't. Or indeed any as yet unvoted player could step in and make it 5.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 10:11:56 AM
My bad, I confused mrick's vote to be ELVs

Imaginary Mark
29 Nov 07, 10:14:50 AM
Last night I viewed ELV and it came back bad.

To me, the most damning thing about Spenser is that he's still alive. But that also may be what the mafia are hoping we'll think.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 10:16:20 AM
That meant that ELV could have made it 5 if he was mafia and you weren't. Or indeed any as yet unvoted player could step in and make it 5.

Everything you say is made to looking damning against me, like propaganda. Has any one considered that neither myself or ELV is scum? Maybe all three aren't on the bandwagon but I don't think IM or enigma have even checked in yet (or am I wrong, my first reaction to today was a bit of anger at post after post of BS against me so I have been a bit reactive)

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 10:17:23 AM
Last night I viewed ELV and it came back bad.

To me, the most damning thing about Spenser is that he's still alive. But that also may be what the mafia are hoping we'll think.

OK so Xpost, IM has now checked in.

Tom Sawyer
29 Nov 07, 10:18:47 AM
To me, the most damning thing about Spenser is that he's still alive. But that also may be what the mafia are hoping we'll think.

Really? For eight days? I can see it for a few if they were going after the people with good views, but lasting this long? I don't buy it.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 10:20:56 AM
Really? For eight days? I can see it for a few if they were going after the people with good views, but lasting this long? I don't buy it.

Really? Who is about to get lynched? :Eeek:

Tom Sawyer
29 Nov 07, 10:21:58 AM
Really? Who is about to get lynched? :Eeek:

Yes. On the eighth day.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 10:23:37 AM
Really? Who is about to get lynched? :Eeek:

Yes. On the eighth day.


Would you like 8 maids-a-milking? WTF does that matter?

Imaginary Mark
29 Nov 07, 10:27:12 AM
I have been watching the night kills somewhat throughout the game. Both Tears and Spenser are good players who usually take leadership-type roles in these games and so would be natural choices for night kills. But on most of the days there has been suspicion on each of them so there has also been the possibility that one of them would get lynched soon. Tears lasted a long time and didn't get night killed.

Spenser may be being kept alive in the hopes that they'll be able to get him lynched or he may be mafia himself. It's not an easy, clear-cut choice for me.

Tom Sawyer
29 Nov 07, 10:27:13 AM
Would you like 8 maids-a-milking? WTF does that matter?

If it doesn't matter, why'd you respond to my post about you surviving eight days as being suspicious with the defense that "hey, I'm about to get lynched so I'm not suspicious"?

The fact that you've lasted so long without the mafia killing you is suspicious to me, even if, as you suggested but didn't back up, they went after the good seers first. That we're trying to lynch you today for being suspicious doesn't give an answer for that suspicion.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 10:28:08 AM
That meant that ELV could have made it 5 if he was mafia and you weren't. Or indeed any as yet unvoted player could step in and make it 5.

Everything you say is made to looking damning against me, like propaganda. Has any one considered that neither myself or ELV is scum? Maybe all three aren't on the bandwagon but I don't think IM or enigma have even checked in yet (or am I wrong, my first reaction to today was a bit of anger at post after post of BS against me so I have been a bit reactive)

It's not BS, it's right there in the threads for everyone to see. You claim I'm carrying out a hatchet job, so wtf would you call what you did to Tears?

All I can say to undecided voters is read the threads, see if your conclusions agree with mine. I initially didn't vote in my first post as I didn't want to rush into a rash decision, but after going through Spenser's activities in each day's thread I was convinced he was scum and voted accordingly.

Tom Sawyer
29 Nov 07, 10:28:16 AM
Anyhoo, I'm off until about 3:30 EST

Imaginary Mark
29 Nov 07, 10:33:09 AM
One question I have for you Spenser that I don't think has been answered yet, is how are you still alive today after getting all the early votes?

Wouldn't the mafia be able to get a fifth vote on you?

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 10:34:16 AM
This is what I think so far today. I think the mob are all present. I think ELV is cleared cause he could have finished me but took his time and thought it out. I think enigma is cleared cause the mob have everything at stake and he hasn't even shown up. IM could be mob cause he didn't post till after I was no longer on the chopping block, hard to tell. Tenuous is obvious mob cause of his sudden attack job and making such definitive statements in a game where the town can never be sure. Tom I know think is mob too cause he is being intentionally obtuse with me. Mrick has been so damn silent he could easily be the sleeper cell so I think three of these four are our mafia:

Tenuous, Tom Sawyer, Mrickaby, Imaginary Mark

And note the haste at which Tenuous, and some degree Tom, want to get this day over with.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 10:36:03 AM
One question I have for you Spenser that I don't think has been answered yet, is how are you still alive today after getting all the early votes?

Wouldn't the mafia be able to get a fifth vote on you?

I think that has been answered, you weren't in time, enigma is not here, and all three mob could easily already be on me.


ETA: Look at the rush there was to kill me, like trying to get it done before I even logged on.

Imaginary Mark
29 Nov 07, 10:38:43 AM
I thought you said you thought I was mob?

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 10:42:10 AM
I thought you said you thought I was mob?

No, I said you could be and you not getting here in time would be why I was still alive. Or you may be town and all 3 mafia votes are already on me. Or enigma is mob and a lazy team mate fucking his cohorts by not showing up (which seems more like he is just not invested and therefore town).

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 10:44:45 AM
Tenuous is obvious mob cause of his sudden attack job and making such definitive statements in a game where the town can never be sure.

You seemed to be pretty fucking sure about Tears, and led an unrelenting 'attack job' but he turned out to be innocent. So that makes you 'obvious mob' by your own logic.

I went through the threads, examined your actions on a day by day basis and considered also other suspicious things like the silence, and I've drawn conclusions from those things. I posted my reasoning and my vote accordingly, and that's all anyone can do. If that's somehow 'definitive' then we're all doing it, or if you're referring to my summary of your actions, people can check the threads for themselves to see how definitive they are.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 10:45:12 AM
HA, even though I just made it my avatar it would be funnier if it was trills!

<----

Imaginary Mark
29 Nov 07, 10:45:20 AM
Hm.

I'm going to think about things a bit and I have some things I need to do so I'll be back on in a couple hours to make my vote.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 10:48:27 AM
Tenuous is obvious mob cause of his sudden attack job and making such definitive statements in a game where the town can never be sure.

You seemed to be pretty fucking sure about Tears, and led an unrelenting 'attack job' but he turned out to be innocent. So that makes you 'obvious mob' by your own logic.

Show me a post where I so definitely claimed he was mob like you are doing to me? I said many times I suspected he was scum and I did but you are pretty much stating it unequivocally. Being pretty sure and damn certain are the difference between town and scum.

I don't know why I am bothering to defend myself against you anymore, I am pretty sure you are scum.


ETA: If the most damning piece of evidence against me is that I spearheaded the lynch against tears, I suggest people go back and read all the games I have ever played. In many of them I have spearheaded the lynch of some one who turned out to be innocent. I tend to take the leadership roles and more often than not town is lynched. What do you expect?

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 11:02:15 AM
Tenuous is obvious mob cause of his sudden attack job and making such definitive statements in a game where the town can never be sure.

You seemed to be pretty fucking sure about Tears, and led an unrelenting 'attack job' but he turned out to be innocent. So that makes you 'obvious mob' by your own logic.

Show me a post where I so definitely claimed he was mob like you are doing to me? I said many times I suspected he was scum and I did but you are pretty much stating it unequivocally. Being pretty sure and damn certain are the difference between town and scum.

I don't know why I am bothering to defend myself against you anymore, I am pretty sure you are scum.

Please continue to put words into my mouth and quibble over semantics. Certainly beats properly addressing the major points against you.

We have to vote for someone, I see way more evidence against you than anyone else, including that which you've added in this thread. Pointing out that evidence isn't evidence against me no matter how much you try to twist it, let's see some clear reasoning that is backed up by the threads. Rather than the kind of reasoning and persuasion you used to get Tears lynched, who if I may point it out again, was completely innocent.

btw, you missed Mefisto out in your last big FOS post, so where does she stand in your "these guys must be mafia" logic?

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 11:04:07 AM
ETA: If the most damning piece of evidence against me is that I spearheaded the lynch against tears, I suggest people go back and read all the games I have ever played. In many of them I have spearheaded the lynch of some one who turned out to be innocent. I tend to take the leadership roles and more often than not town is lynched. What do you expect?

I think the word for the evidence against you is 'preponderance'. Who do you suggest I vote for instead, and what's your reasoning?

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 11:06:33 AM
Aside from you parroting the same BS, I left mefisto out cause I thought the unvote more a a sign of town than scum.

What more reasoning do I need for you as scum besides your obvious scum tactics against me today. Looks like you were hoping to have me out of the way before I even logged on.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 11:09:20 AM
ETA: If the most damning piece of evidence against me is that I spearheaded the lynch against tears, I suggest people go back and read all the games I have ever played. In many of them I have spearheaded the lynch of some one who turned out to be innocent. I tend to take the leadership roles and more often than not town is lynched. What do you expect?

I think the word for the evidence against you is 'preponderance'. Who do you suggest I vote for instead, and what's your reasoning?

Now you are going to pretend like there is anything I can say to change your mind??? My two strongest suspect now are you and Tom. You were pretty much off my radar till this morning which is why I don't have bunch of things to point out against you today. I don't suppose you are going to vote for yourself? :kookoo:

ELV
29 Nov 07, 11:20:22 AM
Alright, this is how things look from my perspective.

There are two definite sides here, I don't think that the mafia votes have been split up so far.

The mafia, IMO, are either:

Group 1:
Spenser
IM
Enigma

or

Group 2:
Tenuous
Tom Sawyer
mrickaby

The first group should be fairly obvious (if you aren't me, for the sake of this argument, assume I'm innocent) They are all the people that could have finished the game if Spenser wasn't mafia, but have chosen not to.

Tenuous and Tom Sawyer are headlining the second group obviously. I suspect mrickaby to be the other mafia in that group because of stuff from the last game when we were both scum. Mefisto could be in on it, but I don't think so.

This really sucks though, because its pretty much 50/50 IMO between the two groups. But, I think the 4 super early votes on Spenser is a bit too suspicious.

I could very very easily be wrong about it, but I'm guessing its group 2. vote tenuous

I guess none of all that is really new, or convincing or even any sort of argument, but I think we are at a point where we just have to go with what we've discerned so far and hope to be right. Whoever the mafia are, you guys have done a good job of confusing everything.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 11:34:52 AM
Now you are going to pretend like there is anything I can say to change your mind??? My two strongest suspect now are you and Tom. You were pretty much off my radar till this morning which is why I don't have bunch of things to point out against you today. I don't suppose you are going to vote for yourself? :kookoo:

Look, it's quite simple, if it's unreasonable for me to have voted for you based on the evidence I found in the threads, just present a stronger case against someone else. Who else should I have voted for and why?

Since your only evidence against me is that I voted for you, you'd should really be making a case as to why that's unreasonable before you start accusing me of being scum.

Who else should I vote for and why?

Simple enough.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 11:37:42 AM
I could very very easily be wrong about it, but I'm guessing its group 2. vote tenuous

I guess none of all that is really new, or convincing or even any sort of argument, but I think we are at a point where we just have to go with what we've discerned so far and hope to be right. Whoever the mafia are, you guys have done a good job of confusing everything.

Why don't you read the threads and present a case based on the copious amount of evidence out there? I'll ask you the same thing, given the evidence I found checking into Spenser, who else should I have voted for and why?

ELV
29 Nov 07, 11:40:02 AM
Its not who you voted for (mostly) its how you did it.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 11:41:52 AM
Agreeing with Tenuous here.

vote: Spenser

IMark also seems suspicious to me at this point. I will try to outline it later, if I get a chance.

This is all you have posted. Besides myself, I am sure the rest of the town would like to hear more from you.

ELV
29 Nov 07, 11:42:38 AM
I've said it before, theres a lot to be suspicious about for everyone. I could probably make a case for any person in the game being scum. I think recent actions speak most loudly because they are more critical to the end of the game.

I'm not certain, but it seems that the early votes on Spenser was a scum gambit to end the game quickly. If so, it almost worked, I almost voted for him but I thought about it a bit. I could be wrong, but I don't have anything better to go on.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 11:47:44 AM
I've said it before, theres a lot to be suspicious about for everyone. I could probably make a case for any person in the game being scum. I think recent actions speak most loudly because they are more critical to the end of the game.

I'm not certain, but it seems that the early votes on Spenser was a scum gambit to end the game quickly. If so, it almost worked, I almost voted for him but I thought about it a bit. I could be wrong, but I don't have anything better to go on.

Yes you do, you could examine the game threads. Find someone other than Spenser that I should be voting for. How is it unreasonable for me to vote for the person with the clearest evidence against them?

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 11:49:22 AM
Why don't you read the threads and present a case based on the copious amount of evidence out there? I'll ask you the same thing, given the evidence I found checking into Spenser, who else should I have voted for and why?

Thats just it. What you keep calling copious amounts of evidence aren't so much. If you are scum then you have to go find copious amounts of things I've posted and make them seem like some sort of evidence.

I came in to today figuring I had a good chance of getting lynched mostly cause I expected the "Why is Spenser still alive?" argument. I think you went over kill on me from the get go and exposed yourself, cause even I didn't FOS you till today. I think both you and Tom are anxious, the mob should be anxious, and here we are.

You keep asking me who I think you should vote for, well, I now think you are scum so if you are what kind of sense does it make for me to try and convince you to lynch some one else?

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 11:50:31 AM
Yes you do, you could examine the game threads. Find someone other than Spenser that I should be voting for. How is it unreasonable for me to vote for the person with the clearest evidence against them?

Um, if he thinks you are scum then the same argument I just made applies.

ELV
29 Nov 07, 11:53:30 AM
I've said it before, theres a lot to be suspicious about for everyone. I could probably make a case for any person in the game being scum. I think recent actions speak most loudly because they are more critical to the end of the game.

I'm not certain, but it seems that the early votes on Spenser was a scum gambit to end the game quickly. If so, it almost worked, I almost voted for him but I thought about it a bit. I could be wrong, but I don't have anything better to go on.

Yes you do, you could examine the game threads. Find someone other than Spenser that I should be voting for. How is it unreasonable for me to vote for the person with the clearest evidence against them?

Thats borderline offensive. What do you think I was doing in the threads reading so often when Tom noticed?

I've read all the threads and I've been paying attention to the evidence. What I'm saying is that there is plenty of evidence for everyone. No one stands out, until today. Today you stand out.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 11:56:49 AM
You keep asking me who I think you should vote for, well, I now think you are scum so if you are what kind of sense does it make for me to try and convince you to lynch some one else?

It makes sense because there would still be 2 more mafia to find if I was bad, and anything you found would be useful for uncovering them. I mean, it's not exactly wasted effort unless you are indeed mafia.

ELV
29 Nov 07, 11:58:23 AM
We don't really need to do that. If you're scum, we know who the others are already.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 11:59:08 AM
You keep asking me who I think you should vote for, well, I now think you are scum so if you are what kind of sense does it make for me to try and convince you to lynch some one else?

It makes sense because there would still be 2 more mafia to find if I was bad, and anything you found would be useful for uncovering them. I mean, it's not exactly wasted effort unless you are indeed mafia.

I think today is uncovering them more clearly than anything so far. Like I said, I think ELV and enigma have been cleared and of the rest it looks to me most likely you, Tom and mrick, and that is the order I would lynch you in in case I am wrong about the last one.

enigma
29 Nov 07, 12:02:18 PM
vote Enigma

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 12:06:31 PM
I think it's pretty telling that you've got no interest in examining the threads looking for mafia, but instead only want to jump on me for voting for spenser. When voting for spenser is the most reasonable thing to do if he's the one with the clearest evidence against him.

And enigma, voting for yourself is not a good idea, you would let the mafia get 4 votes on you immediately and if Spenser is indeed mafia as I suspect that would let them win. Though I presume only at nightfall, rather than a 5 vote instant vote. Nevertheless, it's not a good idea.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 12:08:29 PM
And enigma, voting for yourself is not a good idea, you would let the mafia get 4 votes on you immediately and if Spenser is indeed mafia as I suspect that would let them win. Though I presume only at nightfall, rather than a 5 vote instant vote. Nevertheless, it's not a good idea.

You seemed to miss the fact that if you replace my name here with yours the same applies. :narrow:


Seriously enigma, WTF? If you are confused at least attempt to hash it out.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 12:13:22 PM
We don't really need to do that. If you're scum, we know who the others are already.

Yes, cos it would be entirely unreasonable for any townie to vote for Spenser, after all, he only led lynches on innocent players, defended known scum and somehow managed to survive with mayor powers right till the end of the game from day 1. When he's supposed to be a really good mafia player.

Apparently though, everyone has equal evidence to that according to you. So let's see it.

ELV
29 Nov 07, 12:13:54 PM
Tenuous, I've examined the threads looking for mafia and I think I've found them. The only thing I'm certain of is that I'm not going to be certain of anything until this game is over.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 12:14:39 PM
You seemed to miss the fact that if you replace my name here with yours the same applies. :narrow:


No it doesn't. I'm not the mayor and I don't have the deciding vote in a tie break.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 12:17:10 PM
You seemed to miss the fact that if you replace my name here with yours the same applies. :narrow:


No it doesn't. I'm not the mayor and I don't have the deciding vote in a tie break.

I wasn't picturing there would be a 4/4 split with one being enigma so I suppose you are right. Strangely enough no one is jumping to vote for him.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 12:17:28 PM
Tenuous, I've examined the threads looking for mafia and I think I've found them. The only thing I'm certain of is that I'm not going to be certain of anything until this game is over.

Your evidence is that I'm scum because I voted for Spenser, so tell me, who else should I have voted for? How is that unreasonable?

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 12:18:50 PM
You seemed to miss the fact that if you replace my name here with yours the same applies. :narrow:


No it doesn't. I'm not the mayor and I don't have the deciding vote in a tie break.

I wasn't picturing there would be a 4/4 split with one being enigma so I suppose you are right. Strangely enough no one is jumping to vote for him.

It's not particularly strange if he is also mafia. It's certainly a dumb move if he is town whatever way you look at it.

enigma
29 Nov 07, 12:22:07 PM
No it doesn't. I'm not the mayor and I don't have the deciding vote in a tie break.

I wasn't picturing there would be a 4/4 split with one being enigma so I suppose you are right. Strangely enough no one is jumping to vote for him.

It's not particularly strange if he is also mafia. It's certainly a dumb move if he is town whatever way you look at it.

Really? Either I am perfectly safe, or I gain some understanding.

As a townie, I'm not seeing the downside.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 12:25:39 PM
I wasn't picturing there would be a 4/4 split with one being enigma so I suppose you are right. Strangely enough no one is jumping to vote for him.

It's not particularly strange if he is also mafia. It's certainly a dumb move if he is town whatever way you look at it.

Really? Either I am perfectly safe, or I gain some understanding.

As a townie, I'm not seeing the downside.

1 minute before th1nk3r declares nightfall, all 3 mafia including the mayor switch votes to you and you are lynched and the town loses. How's that for a downside?

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 12:32:54 PM
Also, I need to go AFK for a while now, all I can say to the town is read the threads, examine the evidence, see what makes sense. That's what I did and it's what you should do.

enigma
29 Nov 07, 12:34:27 PM
It's not particularly strange if he is also mafia. It's certainly a dumb move if he is town whatever way you look at it.

Really? Either I am perfectly safe, or I gain some understanding.

As a townie, I'm not seeing the downside.

1 minute before th1nk3r declares nightfall, all 3 mafia including the mayor switch votes to you and you are lynched and the town loses. How's that for a downside?

If that happens I'm screwed regardless of whether I'm voting for myself or not unless someone puts together a voting bloc of 4 all voting for the same person.

I have yet to see any signs that is occurring.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 12:41:57 PM
If that happens I'm screwed regardless of whether I'm voting for myself or not unless someone puts together a voting bloc of 4 all voting for the same person.

I have yet to see any signs that is occurring.

Personally I think you are clear. I don't think voting for yourself is a great idea but I also don't think that is where your vote is going to remain so I don't see the big deal at the moment.

What I do see is Tenuous seeming to get desperate and pointing any where else but this actual thread where I believe he exposed himself and likely the rest of the mob.

Do you at least have an opinion on who you think is scum?

Tom Sawyer
29 Nov 07, 01:24:16 PM
enigma's is a stupid move if he isn't mafia. As others have said, the other three could just pile on him and if Spenser's one of them, that wins the game for the mafia. Are they allowed to PM during the day? If so, they could just time their posts and jump on him at anytime.

It's kind of a scummy move, but he's still near the bottom of the list. It's still a toss-up between Spenser and Tenuous for me, with the other one being good. If Spenser's good then ELV's either good or really stupid and I'd assume good. I have no clue who the last one would be.

Imaginary Mark
29 Nov 07, 01:25:46 PM
I've thought about this Tenuous vs. Spenser situation a bit and I'm leaning towards Tenuous being mafia. He seems anxious today and something seems odd about him having such a sudden change, going from saying very little about Spenser all game to immediately putting together his very lengthy case. I mean, we've all been reading the same threads. It's not like there has been any new information today.

I'm going to vote Tenuous for now.

But there is one other thing that is bothering me. ELV, why aren't you saying anything about your views anymore?

Tom Sawyer
29 Nov 07, 01:35:34 PM
2. ELV - Tenuous
3. Tom Sawyer - Spenser
7. Imaginary Mark - Tenuous
14. mrickaby - Spenser
15. Spenser - Tenuous
19. Tenuous - Spenser
22. mefisto -
23. enigma - Enigma

Tenuous - 3
Spenser - 3

Tom Sawyer
29 Nov 07, 01:39:01 PM
Well, if Tenuous is good, then mrickaby, mefisto, enigma could jump on him and end this game if any of them are mafia.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 01:42:01 PM
2. ELV - Tenuous
3. Tom Sawyer - Spenser
7. Imaginary Mark - Tenuous
14. mrickaby - Spenser
15. Spenser - Tenuous x2
19. Tenuous - Spenser
22. mefisto -
23. enigma - Enigma

Tenuous - 4
Spenser - 3

I don't get two votes so its 3/3


Something else I justed realized. Tenuous hasn't even mentioned a suspect list other than just me, , neither has mrick who just showed up, agreed with Ten, voted me and bailed. Tom, you have us both which I think doesn't make sense but at least you are looking at the rest of the game it seems.

Tom Sawyer
29 Nov 07, 01:44:21 PM
I don't get two votes so its 3/3

Oh. I thought you did. Did this change at some point or was it like this all game?



Something else I justed realized. Tenuous hasn't even mentioned a suspect list other than just me, , neither has mrick who just showed up, agreed with Ten, voted me and bailed. Tom, you have us both which I think doesn't make sense but at least you are looking at the rest of the game it seems.

I figured it was either you or Tears and either Tenuous or d0t. Both of the other two were confirmed good, so that puts you two up and I haven't seen anything to change that.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 01:45:14 PM
I only have the ability to decide ties.

Tom Sawyer
29 Nov 07, 01:46:38 PM
I only have the ability to decide ties.

So, between you and Tenuous, who would you pick? :D

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 01:47:47 PM
I only have the ability to decide ties.

So, between you and Tenuous, who would you pick? :D

Lets just say I am a little more sure than 60% / 40%

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 01:59:03 PM
Off to lunch

ELV
29 Nov 07, 02:05:31 PM
For IM:

Night 1 – Damian – Good - confirmed
Night 2 – Spenser – Good
Night 3 – Tears – Bad - confirmed false
Night 4 – Matt - Bad - confirmed
Night 5 - ST - Bad - confirmed false
Night 6 - IM - good
Night 7 - mrickaby - good
Night 8 - Tom - bad

I didn't post them because I figured they were useless and no one seemed to be analyzing views much anymore. If you can find anything in them, good luck.

th1nk3r
29 Nov 07, 02:18:02 PM
Official votecount confirmation:

2. ELV - Tenuous Tenuous
3. Tom Sawyer - Spenser
7. Imaginary Mark - Tenuous
14. mrickaby - Spenser
15. Spenser - Tenuous
19. Tenuous - Spenser
22. mefisto - Spenser
23. enigma - enigma

3 - Spenser
3 - Tenuous
1 - enigma

Tom Sawyer
29 Nov 07, 02:19:51 PM
Well, we know that at least one of Spenser or Tenuous is mafia. If they're both good, then there's no combination where the remaining three mafia couldn't pile their votes on one of them to win the game and it would already be over. If there were two non-mafia's voting for a good one, then the three mafia could switch their votes and lynch him and win the game. If they're both bad, then whomever gets lynched, the other one comes out looking golden and can likely last long enough to win the game.

Regardless of which way it is, things aren't looking up for us.

Tom Sawyer
29 Nov 07, 02:53:31 PM
Well, assuming that all the mafia have been paying attention and aren't away from the thread, we know that out of the two groups of three voters, no more than one can be a good guy voting for a good guy.

If Spenser is good, then both Tenuous and mrickaby are mafia. I know I'm good and Tenuous would have to be bad in this case. If mrickaby were good, then the other two mafia could simply join with Tenuous and win the game.

If Tenuous is good, then Spenser is bad and one of ELV or IM would have to be bad, because if they're both good then the other two mafia would join with Spenser and win the game.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 02:57:55 PM
The reason I haven't mentioned any other suspects is that Spenser has the clearest evidence against him, and what happens today in terms of who supports him or not is obviously important in deciding who to lynch tomorrow.

As I've said, if anyone has a stronger case against someone else then fair enough I'll rethink my vote, but that certainly hasn't appeared.

To be honest, at this stage it seems pretty fecking obvious who is mafia, just read his posts, read the ones today but also look back over the earlier threads, see who he got lynched, see who I got lynched. Nothing he has done has benefited the town, he pushed through lynches on Tears and Trillian, both good, I pushed for lynches on Beren and Matt, both bad. I defended trillian against the crappy logic her lynchers employed. He tried to get jamesbannon and myself to unvote on Matt yesterday. How much clearer does it have to be? There needs to be some sort of :boggle: emoticon.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 03:02:14 PM
Well, assuming that all the mafia have been paying attention and aren't away from the thread, we know that out of the two groups of three voters, no more than one can be a good guy voting for a good guy.

If Spenser is good, then both Tenuous and mrickaby are mafia. I know I'm good and Tenuous would have to be bad in this case. If mrickaby were good, then the other two mafia could simply join with Tenuous and win the game.

If Tenuous is good, then Spenser is bad and one of ELV or IM would have to be bad, because if they're both good then the other two mafia would join with Spenser and win the game.

Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

Tom Sawyer
29 Nov 07, 03:04:36 PM
Anyhoo, I'm off for the evening. Hopefully the town will still be alive when I get back.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 03:20:32 PM
I figured it was either you or Tears and either Tenuous or d0t. Both of the other two were confirmed good, so that puts you two up and I haven't seen anything to change that.

I'm not sure why you'd think there was a conflict between me and d0t. I defended him against Matt's attacks while he was silenced (funnily enough Matt's attacks on d0t used similar logic to Spensers attacks on me today).

enigma
29 Nov 07, 03:24:07 PM
enigma's is a stupid move if he isn't mafia. As others have said, the other three could just pile on him and if Spenser's one of them, that wins the game for the mafia. Are they allowed to PM during the day? If so, they could just time their posts and jump on him at anytime.

I'm pretty sure that they cant PM during the day (I remember seeing it in the rules), thus they can't coordinate such a jump without making some noises in-thread.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 03:45:30 PM
The reason I haven't mentioned any other suspects is that Spenser has the clearest evidence against him, and what happens today in terms of who supports him or not is obviously important in deciding who to lynch tomorrow.

OK so, you see how the vote is set up. Why can't you list who you think is scum? Afraid of offending people or having to figure out which other scum to FOS and which not?

enigma
29 Nov 07, 03:53:37 PM
I would just like to take this opportunity to state that I have no intention of changing my vote until I am reasonably confident of who, between Spenser and Tenuous, is mafia.

th1nk3r
29 Nov 07, 03:54:32 PM
3 hours to go. my isp is acting up again, so i might not be around.

unless we get a 5 vote majority, nightfall is at 9 pm est. starting from 9:01 all votes are void. the official time is that of the rnr server, although in reality it may be a few minutes off...

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 03:59:58 PM
I would just like to take this opportunity to state that I have no intention of changing my vote until I am reasonably confident of who, between Spenser and Tenuous, is mafia.

I am pretty sure cases have been presented, I think this mornings rush to get me lynched before I even logged on was a gambit that almost worked for the mob, and I think it failed showing them for the anxious bunch that they seem to be.

Feel free to discuss this even if you disagree.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 04:04:39 PM
enigma just tested the time in the Rantbox? :narrow:

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 04:19:27 PM
I'm not sure why it's so shocking that I posted earlier than other people given that I'm in the UK and thus in a different time zone.

Currently with Spenser's mayor vote the mafia are going to win this, so people need to make their votes. Leaving it on a tie means Spenser wins, and if TS's logic is correct there's no way one of us isn't mafia, and I know it's not me.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 04:22:39 PM
I don't suppose you'd like to address this at all?

http://www.rantsnraves.org/showthread.php?p=120030#post120030

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 04:26:24 PM
The reason I haven't mentioned any other suspects is that Spenser has the clearest evidence against him, and what happens today in terms of who supports him or not is obviously important in deciding who to lynch tomorrow.

OK so, you see how the vote is set up. Why can't you list who you think is scum? Afraid of offending people or having to figure out which other scum to FOS and which not?

I spent a long time this morning going through the threads to work out who I thought was the most likely candidate as mafia. You can see from the posts that I spent over an hour going through the threads and presenting what I found (though apparently that is a rush). Your only evidence against me is that I voted for you based on this, yet you're the one who has failed to present someone else who I should have picked out, someone for whom their was a stronger case.

I'm not going to list who else is scum because I'm not going to start wildly flinging accusations around without checking out the evidence first, and who supports you today is going to be an important part of that.

You're the one who has failed to present another person who I should have more reasonably chosen to vote for. I did the work, you've done nothing but fling accusations with nothing to back it up.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 04:28:28 PM
The only reason you ask for that is because you know that if I accuse a townie it'll alienate them against me and help swing their support to you.

Yet if I was scum, I could finger another scum and it would be completely safe.

Truth is, I need to look into it more. I asked you to say who you think I reasonably should have voted for ahead of you given the evidence, and you've come up with nothing.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 04:30:04 PM
OK, any one else not get that if I think Tenuous is scum then trying to point out some one else to lynch to him (suspected scum) is a bit retarded? Is your strategy to grossly assume your own innocence and hope others will follow?

Not to mention the fact that built on my suspicion of him I have presented a list of who I do suspect. I'm baffled why he won't FOS any one else.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 04:31:55 PM
The only reason you ask for that is because you know that if I accuse a townie it'll alienate them against me and help swing their support to you.

Yet if I was scum, I could finger another scum and it would be completely safe.

Truth is, I need to look into it more. I asked you to say who you think I reasonably should have voted for ahead of you given the evidence, and you've come up with nothing.

How come all your arguments you don't apply to yourself? If I am scum then I have just done what you claim you are afraid to do cause I provided my list. :kookoo:

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 04:32:51 PM
Your entire case is built around "Tenuous voted for me OMG HE MUST BE MAFIA!", yet you accuse me of a strategy of "grossly assume your own innocence and hope others will follow".

It's not hard to see that for my vote for you to be unreasonable there had to be someone for whom their was stronger evidence against, and after a whole day of obfuscation you've still not come up with anything.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 04:34:32 PM
The only reason you ask for that is because you know that if I accuse a townie it'll alienate them against me and help swing their support to you.

Yet if I was scum, I could finger another scum and it would be completely safe.

Truth is, I need to look into it more. I asked you to say who you think I reasonably should have voted for ahead of you given the evidence, and you've come up with nothing.

How come all your arguments you don't apply to yourself? If I am scum then I have just done what you claim you are afraid to do cause I provided my list. :kookoo:

Because you are scum and you know who you can safely accuse or not. I can't because I'm not sure and there's a chance I'd hit a townie and alienate them.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 04:34:47 PM
Your entire case is built around "Tenuous voted for me OMG HE MUST BE MAFIA!",

Dude, that is not my case and I think that is extremely obvious. I'd rather not repeat myself over and over, its all in this thread, you know, the thread you keep pointing away from. :ninja:

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 04:37:06 PM
Because you are scum and you know who you can safely accuse or not. I can't because I'm not sure and there's a chance I'd hit a townie and alienate them.

So your logic is that if you list your suspects you alienate them but some how I am alleviated from that cause I am scum? :surprize:

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 05:01:42 PM
Because you are scum and you know who you can safely accuse or not. I can't because I'm not sure and there's a chance I'd hit a townie and alienate them.

So your logic is that if you list your suspects you alienate them but some how I am alleviated from that cause I am scum? :surprize:

If you lynch me today you win, you only need to swing 1 vote, you can safely accuse the other 2 mafia, or townies that have already committed a vote.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 05:06:57 PM
:banghead:

ELV
29 Nov 07, 05:24:54 PM
Tenuous, lets say you're right. What do you think the town should do tomorrow?

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 05:29:51 PM
Tenuous, lets say you're right. What do you think the town should do tomorrow?

He refuses to answer cause some how if he does it alienates townies against him but when I do it doesn't. :Eeek:

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 06:10:57 PM
Tenuous, lets say you're right. What do you think the town should do tomorrow?

It's more difficult tomorrow, since the remaining possibilities have all been much quieter and less involved. The town should check on voting records, who supported who (ie did they support a known bad, or attack a known good), check on their logic when they have given reasons. All the usual old school mafia techniques. Plus I think we'll likely need to look at the view data, with more known good/bad we can calibrate the results better, and also discard the views of known bad. Also probably worth considering if there was any strategy behind the made-up views of known bad players, could be random just for confusion but it's possible they also were trying to finger particular people.

So a whole bunch of stuff, there's no guarantee we'll get it right but with any luck we'll find some discrepancies.

SkepticTank
29 Nov 07, 06:13:43 PM
about 46 minutes to go

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 06:19:25 PM
Tenuous, lets say you're right. What do you think the town should do tomorrow?

:words:

With the stalemate we have been in all day its pretty clear that mafia is on one of these bandwagons. Everything you just said seems like obfuscation to the fact that for some reason you are scared to list your other suspects aside from me. Yet you claim I am scum and I have listed my suspects, mostly due to what looks like your guy's slip this morning in trying to rush a lynch for the win. It hasn't alienated any one from me, in fact I think it might be pretty accurate hence this continued stalemate.

With that I am off to watch the football game. I'll try to check in via phone to see if anything changes.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 06:28:42 PM
If I have to throw out a hunch, it would be that only one of IM/ELV is mafia, and that enigma is. Theory being that enigma is just waiting till just before the deadline to make it 4 votes (with mayor vote) as if he moves before then either IM or ELV might jump ship. Also there's the hope of persuading mefisto to vote to lynch me, at which point enigma could immediately vote and seal it.

However whether that theory holds water all depends on what actions people take, it could be confirmed (in which case we lose) or various other things could happen like one of IM/ELV switching, or enigma voting to lynch spenser, or mefisto comes back right before the whistle instead and votes either way.

It's certainly not enough of a theory to throw out accusations, and if we get through to tomorrow it won't be confirmed one way or the other so we'll still need more to go on. But that's my current hunch.

Marcus
29 Nov 07, 06:36:01 PM
Tenuous, Spenser looks scummier than you. vote Spenser

I sure hope this is right, I am off to bed.

enigma
29 Nov 07, 06:40:36 PM
Unvote

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 06:43:18 PM
I did spot the "vote tenuous" there before you edited it enigma. Though you are leaping a little early if my hunch is right.

enigma
29 Nov 07, 06:43:53 PM
On second thought, revote: Enigma.

I'd like to see how this plays out...

enigma
29 Nov 07, 06:46:16 PM
I did spot the "vote tenuous" there before you edited it enigma. Though you are leaping a little early if my hunch is right.

I was looking to even the vote so I could wait and see if certain things would happen. After posting, I immediately realized that I could not vote both you and myself as needed to check things out.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 06:49:21 PM
I did spot the "vote tenuous" there before you edited it enigma. Though you are leaping a little early if my hunch is right.

I was looking to even the vote so I could wait and see if certain things would happen. After posting, I immediately realized that I could not vote both you and myself as needed to check things out.

Well, currently you can decide it one way or the other. Unless one of the other votes changes in the next 5 minutes, then we'll find out whether you're mafia or not pretty shortly I guess. Nothing more I can do.

Marcus
29 Nov 07, 06:59:45 PM
I did spot the "vote tenuous" there before you edited it enigma. Though you are leaping a little early if my hunch is right.

I spotted that too, Tenuous you had me fooled.

unvote; vote Tenuous

enigma
29 Nov 07, 07:00:54 PM
Unvote; Vote Spenser

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 07:04:59 PM
That was sweet!

Imaginary Mark
29 Nov 07, 07:05:46 PM
Anyone have a tally?

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 07:08:39 PM
I choose Tenuous as the lynch obviously!

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 07:09:01 PM
Town loses by my calculations, as I get lynched.

Tears On My Dong
29 Nov 07, 07:09:24 PM
Does enigma's vote count?

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 07:10:10 PM
Don't think it matters, with mefisto's switch.

Imaginary Mark
29 Nov 07, 07:10:58 PM
So we had: Spenser, ELV, IM, and mefisto voting for Tenuous

And Tenuous, Tom Sawyer, mrickaby, and enigma voting for Spenser

Right?

So when do we find out if Tenuous was bad or not?

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 07:11:43 PM
Now, I was good, mafia wins, game over.

Imaginary Mark
29 Nov 07, 07:12:22 PM
Shame.


:p

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 07:14:33 PM
:D

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 07:14:33 PM
:D

enigma
29 Nov 07, 07:15:01 PM
What I was waiting to see was whether or not anyone would try to jump me at the last minute. Since the bad guys know I'm a townie, they could use me as the lynch they needed to win the game. Before mephisto showed up my plan was as follows:

Nobody jumping me: Vote Spenser
Somebody Jumping Me: Unvote, and let Tenuous get Lynched

...since (hypothetical mafia) Spenser would not need to jump me in that case since he's getting (hypothetical townie) Tenuous lynched. (hypothetical mafia) Tenuous, on the other hand, would need to jump me in order to get a townie.

When mephisto voted for Spenser, it took me a minute or two that it just turned my above scenarios and what I should do backwards.

Nobody jumping me: Vote Tenuous
Somebody Jumping Me: Unvote, and let Spenser get Lynched

Then mephisto decided to change his vote to Tenuous, I try to rapidly work out what I should do in the last 15 seconds and end up voting for Spenser realizing about 10 seconds later that it doesn't have any effect on the outcome whatsoever.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 07:15:13 PM
So, who was the dupe? Or was it just spenser being an arse and we were both good? :)

enigma
29 Nov 07, 07:16:37 PM
Does enigma's vote count?

Thinker said votes would be null after 9:01. So my vote that has no effect on the outcome had better damn well count :p

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 07:17:28 PM
Well, congrats Spenser, looks like 1 person needs an upgrade to their logic circuits, was pretty bloody obvious you were scum :)

Imaginary Mark
29 Nov 07, 07:18:20 PM
I hope that comment wasn't directed at me.

Tears On My Dong
29 Nov 07, 07:18:23 PM
Congratations Tenuous, you now know what it feels like to be me.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 07:19:41 PM
No, I'm mob and have been LOLing all day. Read all my posts again today knowing I was mob. I was try to add some lulz

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 07:25:42 PM
It's not too late to give me a job, I'd be pretty handy with a Thompson :p

Imaginary Mark
29 Nov 07, 07:27:13 PM
I think you just got "jobbed" in broad daylight yourself, my friend. ;)

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 07:29:21 PM
tears, do you still feel sorry for the mob? ;)

Marcus
29 Nov 07, 07:30:49 PM
Good game everybody.

Tenuous
29 Nov 07, 07:31:23 PM
Anyway, better head to bed. Congrats :)

SkepticTank
29 Nov 07, 07:32:27 PM
Tenuous, good detective work, you had me convinced at 6am. I IM'd Spenser and he confirmed that he was Mafia, so I watched the rest of the day cracking up.

I also knew Matt was Mafia (I viewed him as evil the night I died as evil, and Th!nk3r confirmed that I was a good seer) and watched the town flounder on him for two days. The good guys had some good reads, but didn't follow through well.

ELV
29 Nov 07, 07:35:15 PM
so, who were all the bad guys?

Tears On My Dong
29 Nov 07, 07:36:32 PM
I was cracking up.

I think some people should sit out a couple games and think about what they did. Trillian's lynch was pretty shady but I don't even know what you guys were thinking when you lynched me. There wasn't even circumstantial evidence that I might be scum. Then after all that, it's still not obvious that Spenser is scum? Every move he made was scummy. Look at his reads. Look at his votes. Read his posts.

I'm changing my motto from "lynch the quiet ones" to "lynch the stupid ones". At least the lurkers don't hop on the mafia bandwagons.

By the way, a wealthy philanthropist died and left no heirs. He mentioned you in his will as a kind person he met in his travels. He left a large sum of money for you. I just need your bank account info so I can send it.

Imaginary Mark
29 Nov 07, 07:38:42 PM
so, who were all the bad guys?

http://www.smileyworld.com/dictionary/images/smileys/Characters/Angel.gif

SkepticTank
29 Nov 07, 07:40:11 PM
By the way, a wealthy philanthropist died and left no heirs. He mentioned you in his will as a kind person he met in his travels. He left a large sum of money for you. I just need your bank account info so I can send it.

Sweet, do you need my SSN and my mother's maiden name as well?

trillian
29 Nov 07, 07:40:13 PM
so, who were all the bad guys?
Spenser, IM, mefisto, Matt, Beren, beyelzu

eta: except for IM who is obviously an angel and could never be evil.

Tears On My Dong
29 Nov 07, 07:45:06 PM
tears, do you still feel sorry for the mob? ;)

You guys shouldn't have had a chance. Matt should have gotten lynched and you were next. It was pretty obvious that both of you were scum. After that I was thinking Mark and ELV. ELV did a pretty good job of supporting you guys.

ELV
29 Nov 07, 07:49:44 PM
tears, do you still feel sorry for the mob? ;)

You guys shouldn't have had a chance. Matt should have gotten lynched and you were next. It was pretty obvious that both of you were scum. After that I was thinking Mark and ELV. ELV did a pretty good job of supporting you guys.

Yeah. I drank the koolaid :(

Tears On My Dong
29 Nov 07, 07:56:15 PM
tears, do you still feel sorry for the mob? ;)

You guys shouldn't have had a chance. Matt should have gotten lynched and you were next. It was pretty obvious that both of you were scum. After that I was thinking Mark and ELV. ELV did a pretty good job of supporting you guys.

Yeah. I drank the koolaid :(

Don't feel bad. Just go back and reread the whole game.

Beren
29 Nov 07, 08:01:52 PM
Hehe. My first time as mafia was awesome. Especially keeping Bey alive another day by going full out on Trill. (sorry about that). Bey was our killer, I was the reader, I don't remember the other roles.

Tears On My Dong
29 Nov 07, 08:25:11 PM
Do you guys get a feeling of bullet-proof invulnerability when I FOS you? It's almost a guarantee for you to survive. If I ever get to be mafia, I'll just list all the others and we can cruise-control to victory.

th1nk3r
29 Nov 07, 09:23:08 PM
If anyone is interrested, i'll attach the full night actions. Here's a list of all the seers:

player type
1. jamesbannon useless
2. ELV useless
3. Tom Sawyer na´ve
4. d0t useless
5. Sarpedon insane
6. SkepticTank good
8. Tears na´ve
10. Pavlov's Dog paranoid useless
11. Ad Absurdum paranoid
12. Jacey insane
14. mrickaby paranoid
16. Nightson useless
17. trillian na´ve
19. Tenuous good
20. damian paranoid useless
23. enigma paranoid

There were 4 useful seers, and Tenuous was actually one of them, but he had quite a few switched reads. Mafia had all the info available, dunno what the town was thinking when they decided to go along with all views in the open.

My vote goes to Spenser for MVP. And there's 2 or 3 people that need to have their scumdar repaired...

Beren
29 Nov 07, 10:06:41 PM
Hell yeah Spenser gets the MVP. Now that was spin.

Although, Enigma gets a special prize for just bombing in and voting for himself. The mafia on the private forum nearly shit themselves.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 10:08:07 PM
Yes, back on a computer! That was fun this last day. Tears, the thing that you have been missing is it doesn't matter in the least how good you are at picking scum if you can't convince any one of it. I assumed I was fucked today so I just brought all the confidence in the world to the table.

In order to last this game I had to play scummy. I had to give that "that is way too scummy a move for him to do, he's too good to do that!" That, and half the shit I said was true, if I was a crappy seer there really was no reason to lynch me as not lynching me hangs me out to dry. My only hope was convincing people of this...

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 10:10:14 PM
BTW, trill didn't just tell me she'd throw me a fucking parade, she told me she'd throw me a fucking parade! :.popcorn:

Nightson
29 Nov 07, 10:28:46 PM
I can't believe Spenser didn't get lynched. Also, saying nothing about this game was painful.

Spenser
29 Nov 07, 10:32:09 PM
I would just like to refer you to this post:


http://www.rantsnraves.org/showthread.php?p=111123#post111123

Tears On My Dong
29 Nov 07, 11:19:16 PM
Yes, back on a computer! That was fun this last day. Tears, the thing that you have been missing is it doesn't matter in the least how good you are at picking scum if you can't convince any one of it. I assumed I was fucked today so I just brought all the confidence in the world to the table.

In order to last this game I had to play scummy. I had to give that "that is way too scummy a move for him to do, he's too good to do that!" That, and half the shit I said was true, if I was a crappy seer there really was no reason to lynch me as not lynching me hangs me out to dry. My only hope was convincing people of this...

The thing you need to realize Spenser is that shit doesn't work without a bunch of retarded players. I'm not saying you played bad. You did great, but people need to learn the difference between logic and bullshit. Even after I died and th1nk3r told everyone I was good, people still doubted. I made a post explaining in detail how I knew you were scum and no one gave a shit. The day I got lynched, I was silenced. Somehow some braindead mouthbreathers thought I could somehow be scum. I'm not going to bullshit people. My dick doesn't taste like cherry coke. I do have the best scumdar here hands-down. Eventually the goofballs will figure that out.

The real problem isn't people not trusting me. I don't ask for faith when I tell you 2 plus 2 is four. You should be able to do the math or at least follow along when I step you through it.

I call it how I see it. You won't be getting bullshit out of me. If you are too stupid to play this game, don't play. I shouldn't have to hypnotize anyone to get them to lynch an obvious scum.

If you have no clue what is going on, read all my posts carefully. I will tell you what's up every fucking game. If your tin-foil hat prevents you from trusting me somehow, at least lynch that shit when I die and the fucking GM tells you I was good.

By the way, FOSing me is a pretty reliable scum tell. Lynching me is retarded.

Nightson
30 Nov 07, 12:03:43 AM
Lynching Tears when he was silenced and couldn't put up any sort of defense was such, such a stupid thing for the town to do. Not to mention Tears was pretty involved in the deaths of two bad guys.

ELV
30 Nov 07, 12:15:12 AM
At least I had no part in that. :o

I had to go check again though. :D

Tenuous
30 Nov 07, 03:00:53 AM
Well, you can lead players to a huge mound of evidence, but you can't make them read it.

Tenuous
30 Nov 07, 03:03:41 AM
I do have the best scumdar here hands-down.

Your main problem is that you fling so many FOSes about, that it's hard to pick out the ones that are right.

jamesbannon
30 Nov 07, 05:45:59 AM
Don't blame me. I thought either Tears or Spenser was scum and when Tears got hit I was going to vote for Spenser after we had lynched Matt. I thought Tenuous was good as well as d0t, but didn't know about the others. Maybe I should have voted earlier, but I wanted more info.

Jacey
30 Nov 07, 07:33:49 AM
Bah, I kept saying I was insane and voting for Matt and it took how many days to kill him? Town didn't deserve to win

Spenser
30 Nov 07, 07:38:05 AM
The thing you need to realize Spenser is that shit doesn't work without a bunch of retarded players.

Still missing the point. You cannot complain every game about how people should play. This game is essentially a psychological experiment and the point is to learn how people do play this game and react accordingly.

The more you keep calling people dumb and illogical the more you alienate yourself and the easier it is going to be every game to get them to listen to any one but you. Its not about making people conform to how you think this game is played, its about actually learning how to play this game.

Spenser
30 Nov 07, 07:42:28 AM
Like this type of shit:


I also want to add that I feel a little sorry for the mafia this game. They really don't have a chance.

Was joke to me the first time I read it and is exactly why I wanted to get you lynched instead of night killed. Don't take offense to that fact that I am calling you out on this, just realize this game is not what you think it is.

Spenser
30 Nov 07, 08:08:42 AM
Here are some lulz for you guys, when I made this post:


WTF? I call bullshit. This points so heavily to Matt it seems a dumb move if he really is mob and Tears suddenly being silenced just seems too convenient. I'm sticking to my gut:

Vote: Tears



PS I viewed enigma as Bad.


I had thought d0t was the kill, I didn't realize we switched to Sarp. I then got questioned about it and thought "oh shit!"

Pavlov's Dog
30 Nov 07, 08:09:01 AM
You guys should have listened to me about bey from the beginning. His excuse for why his PM was open was the lamest one imaginable.

Tom Sawyer
30 Nov 07, 08:09:53 AM
I think the problem was we spent too much time, especially early on, focusing on the views and not enough focusing on the game. The views gave us no important information whatsoever and only served to screw us up.

I voted with Spenser for Tears instead of Matt because before that day because I'd gotten nothing but good views and the previous night I got a bad one (on Tenuous, he must have been switched). I was so happy to find that I wasn't a naive seer (although I was), that I ignored most everything else and figured that my view on Spenser as good was correct and went along with him for a couple of days.

It was a bit moot by that point anyways, since the town had spent so much time focusing on the views in all the discussions that we forgot to actually play the game and the mafia was already in a strong position. It's just like in the previous game where we were trying to figure out all the objects and overlooked that we were supposed to be trying to figure out the bad guys. Too much extraneous information in the game only serves to harm the town.

Spenser
30 Nov 07, 08:12:51 AM
You guys should have listened to me about bey from the beginning. His excuse for why his PM was open was the lamest one imaginable.

He still claims thats true. I don't see it but th1nk3r should have reset the game. th1nk3r also pissed me off when I asked him to make a rules clarification in the game thread about being able to get two different reads on some one if the mob forced one of them. He refused to do it.

He was the fucking GM and wouldn't address the rules of his own game.

Pavlov's Dog
30 Nov 07, 08:17:36 AM
I don't know if PMing at that time proved anything, but the players reactions after being called out sure did.

jamesbannon
30 Nov 07, 08:19:31 AM
Like this type of shit:


I also want to add that I feel a little sorry for the mafia this game. They really don't have a chance.

Was joke to me the first time I read it and is exactly why I wanted to get you lynched instead of night killed. Don't take offense to that fact that I am calling you out on this, just realize this game is not what you think it is.
Actually when Tears posted that I felt sure he must be scum. I stuck with Matt because he was the most suspicious at that point to my mind. I thought it more likely Tears was scum because you had been silenced and he hadn't, but when he got hit that put you squarely in the frame.

Tenuous
30 Nov 07, 08:22:46 AM
I couldn't understand why you didn't see that Spenser's silence was an excellent scum move, just made no sense to silence a good player early on if he was a townie, as it made him unable to be silenced later when he could have made a valuable contribution.

Spenser
30 Nov 07, 08:22:56 AM
I never thought I'd live out the game.

th1nk3r
30 Nov 07, 08:23:31 AM
I think the problem was we spent too much time, especially early on, focusing on the views and not enough focusing on the game.

Everything the town did regarding the views was wrong... they should have come into play only later on, not after 2-3 days. But by the time they could have been useful, everyone had already tried to go by views and obviously failed, so they got tired of it and never gave the issue any more thought.

th1nk3r
30 Nov 07, 08:25:13 AM
I never thought I'd live out the game.
It was fun to see how you play the endgame... it may be impossible to see that act again for quite a while :D

jamesbannon
30 Nov 07, 08:29:51 AM
I couldn't understand why you didn't see that Spenser's silence was an excellent scum move, just made no sense to silence a good player early on if he was a townie, as it made him unable to be silenced later when he could have made a valuable contribution.
Well I sort of see that now at the end of the game. I just couldn't see why Mafia would "waste" a silence move on one of their own since it effectively allowed 1.5 kills on any one night.


Everything the town did regarding the views was wrong... they should have come into play only later on, not after 2-3 days. But by the time they could have been useful, everyone had already tried to go by views and obviously failed, so they got tired of it and never gave the issue any more thought.
I don't think so even though we lost the game. The information would have been little use because the town would have lynched each other before we got the info anyway. The thing that complicated it so much was that the Mafia could alter the views at night. I don't see how that would have improved as the game went on.

Tom Sawyer
30 Nov 07, 08:38:01 AM
I don't think so even though we lost the game. The information would have been little use because the town would have lynched each other before we got the info anyway. The thing that complicated it so much was that the Mafia could alter the views at night. I don't see how that would have improved as the game went on.

I agree. I was naive and I viewed three people in a row as bad. There really wasn't any way for me to correctly determine my role. The views did nothing except give inaccurate information, yet views are a thing that we're used to be able to rely upon, so we gave them far more weight than they deserved to have. Later in the game, they were just as bad as they were earlier in the game.

the WORST elf
30 Nov 07, 08:46:25 AM
I was silenced, then voted for Spenser, and then was night killed. You guys should've known Spenser was scum and followed my lead because I'm always right and my dick tastes like cherry cola.

C-O-L-A coooola.....

the WORST elf
30 Nov 07, 09:10:08 AM
Okay, just the tip.

Spenser
30 Nov 07, 10:56:41 AM
Oh yeah, well I piss excellence!


Congrats to all my cohorts as well!

Tears On My Dong
30 Nov 07, 06:39:07 PM
Like this type of shit:


I also want to add that I feel a little sorry for the mafia this game. They really don't have a chance.

Was joke to me the first time I read it and is exactly why I wanted to get you lynched instead of night killed. Don't take offense to that fact that I am calling you out on this, just realize this game is not what you think it is.

I assumed other people could see the obvious. When I posted that, we had just killed beyelzu and Beren and I expected you and Matt to be the next 2. That should have been 4 scum in 4 days. I really didn't think anyone could still think you were innocent.

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